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Post by Kit Walker on Apr 7, 2011 17:39:21 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure most people know what rape is and that you should not do it, but I get your point and agree with you. You would be surprised. Dark alleyway where the woman is yelling no? Obviously rape. New girlfriend who is petrified and never said yes to the sex? Still rape. Hell, it took years for people to grasp that marriage certificate != consent. Can you clarify that example? Because there are plenty of people who are nervous about their first time (either in general or with a new person) and therefore might be hesitant, and plenty of circumstances (as I, a male virgin understand it) where people never actually say "hey, you wanna have sex right now?" "why yes, I do believe I do". Are you saying that a dude who was making out with a girl who was nervous and the just kind of naturally proceeded onto doing the deed without outright asking permission is a rapist?
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Post by impatiens on Apr 7, 2011 18:18:38 GMT -5
If the girl finds it to be rape, yes, although there is a major difference between being a little nervous and being outright terrified. There are also plenty of people who are too scared to say no, for a variety of reasons. It depends heavily on how the person feels before, during, and after, really. This blogger is better at explaining such situations than I am. She doesn't agree it's rape, but either way, it's something that should be avoided, and it's, at the very least, uncomfortably close to rape.
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Post by A Reasonable Rat on Apr 7, 2011 19:05:00 GMT -5
Ugh, seriously murky area there. There's dubious consent, coerced consent, retracted consent, implied consent, assumed consent... And how often is there any evidence beyond he-said-she-said testimony? Also, different people will have very different emotional reactions to the same situation, so how much should the victim's subjective experience factor into the severity of the punishment?
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Post by Amaranth on Apr 7, 2011 19:39:28 GMT -5
You had me until "might," then you entered the Glenn Beck speculation zone. I'm not saying Obama is a Marxist, but he MIIIIIIGHT be.... Totally not a fallacy or an accusation, I'M JUST SAYIN'! Oh so telling young women not to leave their drinks unintended because someone might slip something in it is bad advice because it is speculative? YAY GOALPOST SHIFT!
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Post by Amaranth on Apr 7, 2011 19:44:32 GMT -5
Nobody here is telling anyone what they should or shouldn't wear. But the cop who spurred on "Slutwalk" did, and that's what people have been going on about. "Don't dress like a slut" is pretty straightforward. There was no larger context, which seem to be what the apologists are trying to rationalise.
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Post by m52nickerson on Apr 7, 2011 19:50:10 GMT -5
Sorry, but the "Do you want to have sex?", "Why, yes, yes I do want to have sex." exist in the fabled land of public service announcement.
If a women is so timid that she can't utter a no during the act is she going to able to say no before? If she can't then what?
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Post by banjaxed on Apr 7, 2011 20:31:49 GMT -5
Sorry, but the "Do you want to have sex?", "Why, yes, yes I do want to have sex." exist in the fabled land of public service announcement. If a women is so timid that she can't utter a no during the act is she going to able to say no before? If she can't then what? *Puts on rape face and pulls a knife* Bitch, you say anything, and I'll fucking gut you like a fish. OR alcohol+ girl-not wanting sex, but not sober enough to be coherent+ and overly agressive guy=rape Either way it disproves your point
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Post by m52nickerson on Apr 7, 2011 20:50:24 GMT -5
alcohol+ girl-not wanting sex, but not sober enough to be coherent+ and overly agressive guy=rape Either way it disproves your point Threatened, drunk or drugged would be a different story!
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Post by A Reasonable Rat on Apr 7, 2011 21:15:26 GMT -5
Nobody here is telling anyone what they should or shouldn't wear. But the cop who spurred on "Slutwalk" did, and that's what people have been going on about. "Don't dress like a slut" is pretty straightforward. There was no larger context, which seem to be what the apologists are trying to rationalise. Ah, okay well, I misunderstood that, then. I don't agree with that, no... In the context of a non-judgmental warning about wearing provocative clothes in certain situations, there is some truth to it, but the way he said it has become more of an issue than the message itself. --- Something I'd just like to mention - I get the impression now and then that people equate a reason with an excuse. As if by my looking for reasons for people's actions, I am trying to excuse them. And I'm not, a reason is NOT an excuse. If someone hurts your feelings and you go and eat your roommate's last Twinkie, you had a reason. It's not an excuse, you were still wrong. I try to figure out the reasons behind peoples' actions or ways of thinking, because I'm of the belief that you can't reach people, to reason with them, to educate them, unless you first understand them.
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Post by banjaxed on Apr 7, 2011 21:23:07 GMT -5
[ Threatened, drunk or drugged would be a different story! Ok, fine then what about a massive pressure from a (group of) guy(s) saying "Stop being such prude, come on you know you really want to!" I mean that this/these guy(s) don't really give her a chance to say anything through their constant nagging. Side note: Who'd a thunk a pro woman, anti-rape massege would get all flamey.
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Neith
Junior Member
Posts: 80
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Post by Neith on Apr 7, 2011 21:26:01 GMT -5
I try to figure out the reasons behind peoples' actions or ways of thinking, because I'm of the belief that you can't reach people, to reason with them, to educate them, unless you first understand them. I agree. Sometimes they can't be reached, but can we really know that unless we try?
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Apr 7, 2011 22:21:39 GMT -5
I still think bras that spray mace are a good idea. Or vaginal/anal inserts that do the same thing.
Burning weeeeeiner.
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Post by m52nickerson on Apr 7, 2011 22:33:12 GMT -5
Ok, fine then what about a massive pressure from a (group of) guy(s) saying "Stop being such prude, come on you know you really want to!" I mean that this/these guy(s) don't really give her a chance to say anything through their constant nagging. Side note: Who'd a thunk a pro woman, anti-rape massege would get all flamey. If it is just nagging, no. Anything physical that is a different story. I do think that no matter how constant nagging is she could still say no.
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Post by m52nickerson on Apr 7, 2011 22:41:44 GMT -5
I know, how about responding to the post instead of false accusations. Leaving drinks around a is a bad idea for young women. How is talking about protecting your drink a goal post shift from talking about certain behaviors that may increase the chances of being sexually assaulted?
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Post by banjaxed on Apr 7, 2011 22:56:23 GMT -5
Ok, fine then what about a massive pressure from a (group of) guy(s) saying "Stop being such prude, come on you know you really want to!" I mean that this/these guy(s) don't really give her a chance to say anything through their constant nagging. Side note: Who'd a thunk a pro woman, anti-rape massege would get all flamey. If it is just nagging, no. Anything physical that is a different story. I do think that no matter how constant nagging is she could still say no. Your right, nagging was the wrong word to use. How about borderline harrassment. You know guilt tripping, lying, and persuring her until she submitts. YOU KNOW WHEN SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE SEX BUT IS BASICALLY MADE TO DO SO. Pressuring some one into sex is wrong when they may not say no but that's what their body langue and everything else is saying about them. I really don't see how hard this is to follow. Jesus H. Christ what is it about dumb people and Florida. Doesn't seem like all the nuts roll to Florida?
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