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Post by Mira on Apr 9, 2011 10:52:15 GMT -5
The rule about not ending sentences with prepositions is not a native English rule. I came about because of people trying to force Latin grammar on an essentially Germanic language. This. However, I often like to not end sentences with prepositions just because I think it just somehow sounds nicer. I'm not too much of a grammar Nazi as long I can still make sense of what the other person is saying. If, however, said person's grammar is so bad that I have to actively work out what the fuck they're trying to say then I get pissed off. This. In casual use, grammar only matters for clarity. Who the hell cares if "less" or "fewer" is more correct in any given instance, you know what the person means.
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Post by katsuro on Apr 9, 2011 11:07:26 GMT -5
In casual use, grammar only matters for clarity. Who the hell cares if "less" or "fewer" is more correct in any given instance, you know what the person means. Exactly, and a good example too. Same for whoever (whomever? ha!) said about "farther" and "further". Who cares which is technically correct, it doesn't really matter. Especially considering the English language changes with use (we don't have official organisations who decide how the language works like the French and Germans seem to have), and practically nobody says "farther" anymore so I therefore argue "further" is acceptable.
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Post by big_electron on Apr 9, 2011 12:49:47 GMT -5
I still think that grammar and spelling are important. In this picture, I know what the guy means, but he's the real "moran".
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Post by katsuro on Apr 9, 2011 14:20:03 GMT -5
I still think that grammar and spelling are important. In this picture, I know what the guy means, but he's the real "moran". Well it matters in that case because he's trying to insult someone else's intelligence and it's made him look even more stupid as a result. Same for those signs people wave telling immigrants to learn English or make English the only language used in the U.S. etc.
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Dan
Full Member
Posts: 228
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Post by Dan on Apr 10, 2011 13:54:08 GMT -5
The rule about not ending sentences with prepositions is not a native English rule. I came about because of people trying to force Latin grammar on an essentially Germanic language. This. However, I often like to not end sentences with prepositions just because I think it just somehow sounds nicer. Indeed. A similar favourite of mine is splitting infinitives (eg "to not end"): there is no rule against it in English grammar, and furthermore taking measures to avoid splitting an infinitive can make a sentence look or sound weird and clumsy. And it can lead to ambiguity if you have a sentence with two verbs close together: which does the adverb apply to?
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Post by SimSim on Apr 10, 2011 14:58:31 GMT -5
I remember being told in school not to split infinitvies(not like I understood/understand what that means like a lot of grammatical rules). Why would they attempt to teach me not to when it isn't even a grammatical rule?
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Post by John E on Apr 10, 2011 16:16:15 GMT -5
It is and it isn't, same as ending sentences with a proposition. AIUI, those rules are native to Latin, not English. They entered into English because a bunch of hoity toity types, believing that Latin is inherently better than English, tried to introduce and enforce Latin grammar on English. Since there's no central governing body that decides what is and is not proper English grammar, some people consider those to be rules and some don't. From both a historical and a common usage perspective though, they are not. EDIT: www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/14636
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Apr 10, 2011 16:28:06 GMT -5
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Apr 11, 2011 2:44:10 GMT -5
English is more rooted in German than Latin. Though it did steal a ton of words from the Romance languages.
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Dan
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Posts: 228
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Post by Dan on Apr 11, 2011 12:36:10 GMT -5
It is and it isn't, same as ending sentences with a proposition. AIUI, those rules are native to Latin, not English. They entered into English because a bunch of hoity toity types, believing that Latin is inherently better than English, tried to introduce and enforce Latin grammar on English. Since there's no central governing body that decides what is and is not proper English grammar, some people consider those to be rules and some don't. From both a historical and a common usage perspective though, they are not. EDIT: www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/14636Good link. And as it says, the splitting infinitve "rule" in English derives from the fact that it is impossible to split an infinitive in Latin. I'm not sure that these spurious "rules" are entirely the result of deliberate meddling with English grammar, though. The common practice of the day was to mentally translate a sentence into Latin and back again to get the grammar "right," so it's inevitable that some Latin grammar rules would find their way across to English. (Is it just me, or is it surprisingly difficult to deliberately break the non-rule you're discussing, within the discussion?)
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Post by goonerboy on Apr 12, 2011 13:46:10 GMT -5
Who are the other grammar nazis here? You did not drive your car further. You drove your car FARTHER. Further is fine. How else would you say "that's the girl I went to the cinema with"? Because of your ineptitude, I am grammar naziing your grammar nazi post. Hmph.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Apr 12, 2011 16:23:51 GMT -5
How else would you say "that's the girl I went to the cinema with"? "I went to the cinema with her/that girl/[name of girl]."
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 12, 2011 16:25:57 GMT -5
Or "that's the girl with whom I went to the cinema." I love stilted sentences!
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Post by terri on Apr 12, 2011 21:32:44 GMT -5
Not exactly a grammar peeve, but I don't get how "convenience" and "convenient" are misspelled "convience" and "convient." I mean, that middle N isn't silent; how does it get ignored?
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Post by John E on Apr 13, 2011 0:34:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure that these spurious "rules" are entirely the result of deliberate meddling with English grammar, though. The common practice of the day was to mentally translate a sentence into Latin and back again to get the grammar "right," so it's inevitable that some Latin grammar rules would find their way across to English. Hm, that doesn't make sense to me. I've never studied Latin so please correct me if I'm wrong, but... My understanding is that Latin has a much looser word order than English and doesn't use prepositions as much/in the same way, so mentally translating one into the other wouldn't yield any useful results as far as grammar is concerned.
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