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Post by Amaranth on Jul 16, 2011 9:56:18 GMT -5
He did die "off-screen" in the book, too. The reader didn't know anything about it until (I think) Bill (or was it Charlie?) and his co-rider showed up at the Burrow. But then, a lot of the TGWTG reviewers act like illiterate bastards who don't seem to bother with reading the books. *glares at a few in particular* I thought that was the case, but there's the problem of "Am I remembering it from the movie or the book?" I didn't read DH more than once so far, because I still think that it was more a chore than the others. I've been re-reading the whole series, in part because I enjoy it and in part because it saves me from buying new books, so I'll get through it again, but Grrr. The camping trip. The cop-outs. Trying to make Snape a sympathetic character.... ...For the record, I pretty much believed Snape was a good guy all along. But they made him waaaaaay too...Tortured or whatever in the last book. I liked him because he was a magnificent bastard. And they didn't need to make him softer. The fact is, time and again, Harry's prejudices made him suspect Snape, and time and again, he was wrong. That alone should have been enough, coupled with the end result that SNAPE DIED FOR YOUR SINS, that Harry could have had a "Wow, I was a fucking jerk" moment. I think that's why Snape got cut down so much in a few of the movies. Without the last couple of books, he looks like a perpetual red herring. Technically, the later parts of Order of the Hashbrowns as well, when we see what's going on in his head, BUT, mostly the last two titles. DW did allude to the books several times, though, so I wasn't sure if he'd read the books or read this stuff online. Like, I've been watching Power Rangers of late because it's on Netflix, so I looked up the series it was based on because I was curious about differences. So I know quite a bit about Zyurangers without having ever seen it or caring. Similarly, I know a lot of the HP Wikis out there deal with the differences. When my mom and aunt watched the Deadly Camping Trip pt 1, they had an argument over Dobby dying, and so I checked a Wiki to be sure I was settling their argument "right." While his death isn't that much different, reading through his bio to get there, it ntoes a ton of the differences. Which, of course, I knew omst of because I've read the book. Oh dear, amd I rambling now? Point being, I wasn';t sure if he hadn't read the books or if I was remembering wrong.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jul 16, 2011 10:34:27 GMT -5
I love Snape. Unfortunately, I can't remember how I initially reacted to him during my first read-through (I blame my depressive fog + trying to quickly read so I could hide the library books from my mum/because I couldn't put them down for my shitty memory) but I do dearly love him now. Maybe I just have shitty taste (I do kinda like shitty stuff) but I loved how Rowling showed the deep respect between him and Dumbledore, plus Dumbledore's giving him the second chance he really needed.
Also I love how, whenever Harry found out he was wrong about Snape's perceived actions, Snape was all smirky and "neiner neiner, looks like the Boy Wonder is wrong again!". For some reason, I keep hearing Dark Helmet's "FOOLED YOU!" in the background. Hermione kept seeming like the only one of the trio who started to think 'gee maybe he's not actually bad'...
I mean, I know I'd believe the worst about someone who seemed intent on making my school life miserable, so I get where Harry's coming from, but Hermione does keep being right about things, so I'd hope I'd try to listen to her sometimes.
I'm happy to hear that they kept the "Not MY daughter, you BITCH!" line in. My roommate and I were afraid they'd cut it out. <.< Also, the Neville being badass stuff. I audibly squeed when I saw him in Part 1, and I'm looking forward to seeing him kick ass.
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Post by Amaranth on Jul 16, 2011 11:24:43 GMT -5
I love Snape. Unfortunately, I can't remember how I initially reacted to him during my first read-through (I blame my depressive fog + trying to quickly read so I could hide the library books from my mum/because I couldn't put them down for my shitty memory) but I do dearly love him now. Maybe I just have shitty taste (I do kinda like shitty stuff) but I loved how Rowling showed the deep respect between him and Dumbledore, plus Dumbledore's giving him the second chance he really needed. Also I love how, whenever Harry found out he was wrong about Snape's perceived actions, Snape was all smirky and "neiner neiner, looks like the Boy Wonder is wrong again!". For some reason, I keep hearing Dark Helmet's "FOOLED YOU!" in the background. Hermione kept seeming like the only one of the trio who started to think 'gee maybe he's not actually bad'... I mean, I know I'd believe the worst about someone who seemed intent on making my school life miserable, so I get where Harry's coming from, but Hermione does keep being right about things, so I'd hope I'd try to listen to her sometimes. I'm happy to hear that they kept the "Not MY daughter, you BITCH!" line in. My roommate and I were afraid they'd cut it out. <.< Also, the Neville being badass stuff. I audibly squeed when I saw him in Part 1, and I'm looking forward to seeing him kick ass. Not to mention, Dumbledore never really steered Harry Wrong. Of course, at the ne d, it looks like it might have been a little less loving father figure and more chessmaster, but still. Dumbledore said Snape was cool, that should have had SOME cred with him. On top of the fact that Snape had proected him several times and was NEVER the bad guy (Until HBP, where from Potter's perspective, he certainly was). I liked Snape from the beginning, mostly because he was such a bastard. Rickman playing him doesn't hurt, because Rickman usually does bastards well. And yeah, I'd probably hate him with all my guts, but he semed to be on the right side of things most of the time. I'd hope I could get past hating him long enough to look for another suspect. I'm not saying I would have suspected Qurrell, because I'm not that sharp, but looking at Snape solely for being a dick is kinda dumb.
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Post by Random Guy on Jul 16, 2011 13:53:29 GMT -5
I did have a problem with Harry surviving Voldemort's Avada Kedavra in the woods and Dumbledore failing to explain why as he did in the books. The lack of Dumbledore's explanation created a plot hole big enough to drive a train through, yet I seem to be the only one on the Internet or IRL who actually notices.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jul 16, 2011 14:32:45 GMT -5
. Amaranth: That, too, although kids tend to believe their peers (or their peers are just more effective at communicating hard-to-swallow ideas, somehow) more readily than they do adults. At least, that's been my experience...maybe I've just had shitty authority figures as a kid.
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Post by clockworkgirl21 on Jul 16, 2011 16:24:37 GMT -5
Now that I've seen the last movie, I'm sad. I've been a HP fan since 4th grade, more than half my life. Now it's all over. I have to say that throughout the entire series, the only two deaths I cared about were Lupin and Snape. I've always liked Snape, even through the first reading. But then, I do like the villains. I even like Voldemort.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jul 16, 2011 18:21:53 GMT -5
Voldemort is just so...deliciously evil. The last book felt like it pulled a total Godwin (the previous few may've been building up to it, but it felt like DH hit me over the head repeatedly with the Voldie = Hitler thing), but he's still so purely evil. In a way, I can understand his position, which terrifies me even though I'd never agree with his ideas or methods; he's so single-minded and malevolent that I shouldn't be able to recognize anything about him as being human or that resonates with who I am, but I do. That fucking terrifies me. I love it. ;D I've only been a fan for two years, never been to an opening night and now never will...I is sad, but then again, I've had the privilege of being able to absorb the entire series at once, so while I'm sad I never got to muse about what would happen next, I can peruse it completely at my leisure. Also, when my youngest brother comes to spend a couple weeks with me, we're having a motherfuckin' HP movie marathon. Considering that they seem to average 2.5 hours each, I'm not sure how we'll manage it, but by gum WE'LL DO IT. He's also the most illiterate of my brothers (he reads at a first grade level despite being 16-- thanks, Mum, you've really done right by your sons) so maybe I can use the books to motivate him to improve his reading skills. He really seems interested in the series, so we shall see. I swear, whatever it takes, I SHALL attend LeakyCon next year. Count on it. *taps fingers together*
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Post by Sleepy on Jul 16, 2011 18:38:38 GMT -5
I did have a problem with Harry surviving Voldemort's Avada Kedavra in the woods and Dumbledore failing to explain why as he did in the books. The lack of Dumbledore's explanation created a plot hole big enough to drive a train through, yet I seem to be the only one on the Internet or IRL who actually notices. You're not the only one. I've always wondered if I missed something, or if there's some simple explanation for the whole thing that I just overlooked. Is anyone here able to explain that?
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Post by Random Guy on Jul 16, 2011 18:42:10 GMT -5
I did have a problem with Harry surviving Voldemort's Avada Kedavra in the woods and Dumbledore failing to explain why as he did in the books. The lack of Dumbledore's explanation created a plot hole big enough to drive a train through, yet I seem to be the only one on the Internet or IRL who actually notices. You're not the only one. I've always wondered if I missed something, or if there's some simple explanation for the whole thing that I just overlooked. Is anyone here able to explain that? It had to do with the fact that Voldemort had used Harry's blood to resurrect himself in Goblet of Fire. That kept Lily's sacrifice alive within Voldemort, preventing him from killing Harry.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Jul 16, 2011 18:45:10 GMT -5
You're not the only one. I've always wondered if I missed something, or if there's some simple explanation for the whole thing that I just overlooked. Is anyone here able to explain that? It had to do with the fact that Voldemort had used Harry's blood to resurrect himself in Goblet of Fire. That kept Lily's sacrifice alive within Voldemort, preventing him from killing Harry. I thought that was explained in the book. In any case that's what I assumed.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jul 16, 2011 18:46:41 GMT -5
Wait, in the book or the movie? In the book, I basically read it as Voldemort killed the horcrux part of Harry's soul, not Harry himself, because Harry was protected by the magic his mother performed by sacrificing herself for him. In other words, Voldie was foiled by the power of loooooove.
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Post by Sleepy on Jul 16, 2011 18:54:35 GMT -5
It had to do with the fact that Voldemort had used Harry's blood to resurrect himself in Goblet of Fire. That kept Lily's sacrifice alive within Voldemort, preventing him from killing Harry. I thought that was explained in the book. In any case that's what I assumed. I don't remember that being explained in such clear terms, but I haven't read the last book in awhile.
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Post by Amaranth on Jul 16, 2011 19:41:11 GMT -5
I did have a problem with Harry surviving Voldemort's Avada Kedavra in the woods and Dumbledore failing to explain why as he did in the books. The lack of Dumbledore's explanation created a plot hole big enough to drive a train through, yet I seem to be the only one on the Internet or IRL who actually notices. Yeah...That sounds bad. . Amaranth: That, too, although kids tend to believe their peers (or their peers are just more effective at communicating hard-to-swallow ideas, somehow) more readily than they do adults. At least, that's been my experience...maybe I've just had shitty authority figures as a kid. Yeah, but remember, this was the kid loyal enough to Dumbledore, who believed in him enough, that Fawkes showed up to aid him, and wrecked that fucking basilisk. Until about the fifth book, Harry shows a lot of loyalty to Dumbledore, and after that, he only wavers because Dumbledore kind of gives him reason to. Of course, The D thinks he's doing it for the right reasons and stuff, but Harry's left twisting at that point. It seems weird that someone with that much faith, intially blind but later justified, is so unwilling to trust that maybe Snape did turn over from the other side. YES, I MEAN HE'S GAY! WHAT OF IT? ....Kidding. Now that I've seen the last movie, I'm sad. I've been a HP fan since 4th grade, more than half my life. Now it's all over. It will never be over! Soon, Rowling will need a new wing for her mansion, and there will be another Horcrix! >.> Wait, in the book or the movie? In the book, I basically read it as Voldemort killed the horcrux part of Harry's soul, not Harry himself, because Harry was protected by the magic his mother performed by sacrificing herself for him. In other words, Voldie was foiled by the power of loooooove. Now you've done it! "The power of love is a curious thing Make voldie weak, make dumbledore sting Change Snape's heart into a shimmering doe More than a feeling, that's the power of love...." Hey, Doe was as close as I could come to love on the fly. Sue me.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Jul 16, 2011 20:25:31 GMT -5
Yeah, but remember, this was the kid loyal enough to Dumbledore, who believed in him enough, that Fawkes showed up to aid him, and wrecked that fucking basilisk. Until about the fifth book, Harry shows a lot of loyalty to Dumbledore, and after that, he only wavers because Dumbledore kind of gives him reason to. Of course, The D thinks he's doing it for the right reasons and stuff, but Harry's left twisting at that point. It seems weird that someone with that much faith, intially blind but later justified, is so unwilling to trust that maybe Snape did turn over from the other side. YES, I MEAN HE'S GAY! WHAT OF IT? ....Kidding. He's also a Zefron fan. Not even Harry's stupid enough to trust a Zefron fan. Up until Harry found out Snape was partially responsible for Lily and James' deaths (and even then, Voldie could've gone after Neville, but I guess he wanted to torture Snape or something IDK) I agree, he didn't really have a good reason to distrust Dumbledore's assessment of the man. Or his, ah, qualities... *winkwink* But Harry found out in Book 5, so he had books 1-4 to figure, "'ey, Snape's not so bad...a bit of a greasy git, but not evil." And, again, you'd think he'd act more like Hermione-- at first distrustful due to Snape's treatment of him as James' son, then realizing that Snape was helping to protect him. While I wouldn't expect him to have quite the same horrorified reaction as Hermione when Snape kill the old man, since he figures Snape killed his mum anyway, what's one more body for the count, I would still expect him to be more bewildered than "HA, SEE, HE'S PURE EVIL".
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Post by Amaranth on Jul 16, 2011 20:45:49 GMT -5
Yeah, but remember, this was the kid loyal enough to Dumbledore, who believed in him enough, that Fawkes showed up to aid him, and wrecked that fucking basilisk. Until about the fifth book, Harry shows a lot of loyalty to Dumbledore, and after that, he only wavers because Dumbledore kind of gives him reason to. Of course, The D thinks he's doing it for the right reasons and stuff, but Harry's left twisting at that point. It seems weird that someone with that much faith, intially blind but later justified, is so unwilling to trust that maybe Snape did turn over from the other side. YES, I MEAN HE'S GAY! WHAT OF IT? ....Kidding. He's also a Zefron fan. Not even Harry's stupid enough to trust a Zefron fan. Up until Harry found out Snape was partially responsible for Lily and James' deaths (and even then, Voldie could've gone after Neville, but I guess he wanted to torture Snape or something IDK) I agree, he didn't really have a good reason to distrust Dumbledore's assessment of the man. Or his, ah, qualities... *winkwink* But Harry found out in Book 5, so he had books 1-4 to figure, "'ey, Snape's not so bad...a bit of a greasy git, but not evil." And, again, you'd think he'd act more like Hermione-- at first distrustful due to Snape's treatment of him as James' son, then realizing that Snape was helping to protect him. While I wouldn't expect him to have quite the same horrorified reaction as Hermione when Snape kill the old man, since he figures Snape killed his mum anyway, what's one more body for the count, I would still expect him to be more bewildered than "HA, SEE, HE'S PURE EVIL". It also makes the ending a little weird to me, because Harry feels righteously justified in everything he thinks about Snape, until he gets those flashbacks and all that. And yes, I can see how that would shift his world view, but to go from hating the pure evil bastard to naming your son after him, and referring to him as one of the greatest men you've ever known? I know he had years to think about this. It's not like he and Ginny got it on over the corpse of Voldemort and popped out Albus Severus Whateverus 9 months later. But STILL, It's hard to picture him doing that, realistically. and by realistically, I mean consistantly, not that I expect HP to follow the laws of physics. It was cool that Snape got his moment of recognition, but it probably shouldn't have been such an extreme swing, you know?
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