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Post by lighthorseman on Nov 6, 2011 17:23:21 GMT -5
Well, see, this is sort of my point... real black marketiers DON'T stand on the street corner spruiking, nor do hit men. And since they are so hard to come across if one doesn't know what one is doing, I wonder how many of these people would ever actually make contact with anyone legitimately able to offer them the services they are supposed to be looking for. I'm not saying I think that every sting operation is unfair or anything, like I said, I just wonder about the numbers. Yeah, I got your point earlier. And I've kept out of this thread for a reason. But you are missing some things which I'd like to point out to you. In the U.S., attempting to do something against the law is still illegal (see attempted murder). So it really doesn't matter that the gentlemen in question didn't get in touch with a real dealer any more than if they were trying to buy drugs from an undercover cop. "Real" black marketeers; be it suburban drug dealers, weapons dealers, organs, transfats, whatever, and also hit men, get business via word of mouth. You mention you need a bag of weed? I got a guy, I'll give him a call. A gun that can't be traced back to you? A friend of mine knows someone. Got a problem with your old lady? My friend's cousin might be able to handle it. And your last point, about the numbers. It doesn't matter. As I've said earlier, attempting is bad enough to warrant attention. I do appreciate that genuinely attempting something illegal is a crime. And I'm cool with that. But (and just speaking generally here, not necessarily to this case specifically) at what point does idly talking about something become a genuine attempt at planning it? For example, some friends and I, on occasion, have discussed robbing banks, as an hypothetical exercise. We'd never dream of actually doing it, but our discussions have been quite in depth, and our research has been quite indepth. Is that a crime, in your opinion? |
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Post by ironbite on Nov 6, 2011 17:35:28 GMT -5
Not a crime because you're just "talking" about it. And that's the key here. These guys went from "talking" to "planning". Big difference.
Ironbite-and one I don't think you're prepared to grasp.
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Post by Kit Walker on Nov 6, 2011 19:31:59 GMT -5
No, but if your research included purchasing/attempting to purchase an illegal handgun and/or studying the specific security measure of a particular bank, you'd have one fuck of a time proving you weren't actually conspiring to rob a bank.
It is the difference between a couple saying "Hey! We should buy a house! That would be cool!" and actually hiring a realtor to show them some places that are on the market.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Nov 6, 2011 19:35:01 GMT -5
Also, arrest=/=conviction. You may well be able to prove you weren't actually going to do anything. As the old saying goes, "Tell it to the judge."
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Post by lighthorseman on Nov 6, 2011 22:12:59 GMT -5
Also, arrest=/=conviction. You may well be able to prove you weren't actually going to do anything. As the old saying goes, "Tell it to the judge." That is actually, a good point. |
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Post by dasfuchs on Nov 7, 2011 0:55:28 GMT -5
I can't believe this is still going on, it's like explaining physics to a retarded chimp
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Post by rookie on Nov 7, 2011 10:55:19 GMT -5
For example, some friends and I, on occasion, have discussed robbing banks, as an hypothetical exercise. We'd never dream of actually doing it, but our discussions have been quite in depth, and our research has been quite indepth. Is that a crime, in your opinion? Ah! A direct question. Let me see what I can do with that. First of all, why are you asking my opinion? (Rhetorical question. Don't answer.) My opinion doesn't matter not even a half a flying fuck. There are already laws covering that. It could be my opinion that I can safely control my car at 85 MPH down a residential street, but I'll still get a ticket (or worse) if I try it. But you did ask for my opinion. You and some friends talk about robbing a bank? No problem. You start contacting the alarm company, asking about that specific alarm? Still haven't done anything, right? Your friend starts dating someone at the bank with knowledge about security measures used there. Cool. You buy a gun while someone else buys a very fast yet nondescript car. See where I'm going with this? All of this is starting to look like conspiracy. None of those things in and of themselves is bad or wrong or should be a crime. But there is a pattern. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Nov 7, 2011 18:50:56 GMT -5
For example, some friends and I, on occasion, have discussed robbing banks, as an hypothetical exercise. We'd never dream of actually doing it, but our discussions have been quite in depth, and our research has been quite indepth. Is that a crime, in your opinion? Ah! A direct question. Let me see what I can do with that. First of all, why are you asking my opinion? (Rhetorical question. Don't answer.) My opinion doesn't matter not even a half a flying fuck. There are already laws covering that. It could be my opinion that I can safely control my car at 85 MPH down a residential street, but I'll still get a ticket (or worse) if I try it. But you did ask for my opinion. You and some friends talk about robbing a bank? No problem. You start contacting the alarm company, asking about that specific alarm? Still haven't done anything, right? Your friend starts dating someone at the bank with knowledge about security measures used there. Cool. You buy a gun while someone else buys a very fast yet nondescript car. See where I'm going with this? All of this is starting to look like conspiracy. None of those things in and of themselves is bad or wrong or should be a crime. But there is a pattern. I'm interested in your opinion. So, where would you draw the line? When does a hypothetical discussion cross over into "actually planning" territory? |
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Post by the sandman on Nov 7, 2011 19:41:42 GMT -5
/mod kilt on
I am having difficulty believing that I am issuing another damn warning about flaming outside of F&B....and it's for a flame using the same goddamn language as the earlier one.
If you are going to continue to flame outside F&B....at least make it something worth the smacking I am going to administer....
/mod kilt off
I can't believe this is still going on, it's like explaining physics to a retarded chimp
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Nov 7, 2011 22:50:59 GMT -5
Ironbite was probably referencing this topic.
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Post by dasfuchs on Nov 7, 2011 23:04:24 GMT -5
ah, that explains it
Sorry Sandman...I'm just failing to see how challenging it is to see the big, thick, unmissable line between planning something as some type of discussion and searching out items to actually go through with it.
Edit *my post sounds right now*
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Nov 8, 2011 4:15:53 GMT -5
The line between planning and action...
Planning: Here's how we do this, and those are the items we're going to need.
Action: Hey, can I buy some Ricin?
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Post by askold on Nov 8, 2011 6:00:07 GMT -5
I think the Finnish law about planning crimes changed some time ago. At least at some point only some "criminal plans" were illegal.
For example: Planning/preparing to forge money is illegal, If I have an AutoCAD images of euro coins the machines to make coins I could be arrested and given a sentence even if they couldn't prove that I had actually made/were going to make money.
Planning a robbery is (or was not) illegal. Few years back an international group of criminals got together to rob an armoured car in Finland. The police found out about this very early, but they had to wait untill the criminals actually started the robbery. If they had acted to soon all they would have been convicted of was a few illegal firearms that the robbers had.
So the police waited until the criminals armed themselves (pistols, and assault rifles) put their body armour on and got into their cars. (Making the situation dangerous for the police and possibly to the locals as well if the robbers had decided to start shooting.)
What I am trying to point out is that "planning a crime" is can be illegal if the country actually has a law against it! You might argue that it should not be illegal but if there is a law against it then it very definitely is illegal.
The finnish law "trying to attemt to obtain/make drugs is illegal" is both silly and poorly worded. Technically someone might be convicted for wondering where he could get drugs, outloud. (I'm not sure what the judges would actually do about it.)
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kzn02
Full Member
The Master of Tediousness
Posts: 140
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Post by kzn02 on Nov 9, 2011 0:08:24 GMT -5
Ah man, I'm sorry for causing such a fire. XP
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Post by Kisare on Nov 9, 2011 1:29:42 GMT -5
And how did they find out that he was a supposed "arms dealer" unless he was telling people he was one, genius? You think they just asked random people off the street in the hope they found an arms dealer before an undercover cop, and just got unlucky? Um, yeah. That's something like how stupid people that get caught do it*. *I'm going off crime shows here. That's how it happens there. I could be incorrect, however.
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