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Post by erictheblue on Dec 18, 2011 11:47:45 GMT -5
Ironic though, they put 11 as the threshold figuring it would make the child too young to make their decision and in reality at 11 I am certain the child knows enough about themselves to make their own decisions. One of my ex's was born a hermaphrodite and chromosomal mosaic. (She was supposed to have a twin brother. She absorbed her brother early in gestation.) When she was born, her parents had her female organs sewn up, gave her a boy's name, and (for unrelated reasons) sent her to live with her grandmother in Ireland. Until the age of 5, her grandmother called her by a gender-neutral nickname and did not force her either direction. When she was 5, she decided she was a girl. There's also been cases of botched circumcisions, where the parents decide to just raise the child as a girl. At young ages, those children know they are boys.
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Post by canadian mojo on Dec 18, 2011 16:18:42 GMT -5
To me the real issue is while a young child can know what gender they are, are they capable of understanding the ramifications of any decision they make? (To which I freely admit that I have no idea and would defer to the experts)
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Post by Rat Of Steel on Dec 18, 2011 18:00:52 GMT -5
Ironic though, they put 11 as the threshold figuring it would make the child too young to make their decision and in reality at 11 I am certain the child knows enough about themselves to make their own decisions. One of my ex's was born a hermaphrodite and chromosomal mosaic. (She was supposed to have a twin brother. She absorbed her brother early in gestation.) When she was born, her parents had her female organs sewn up, gave her a boy's name, and (for unrelated reasons) sent her to live with her grandmother in Ireland. Until the age of 5, her grandmother called her by a gender-neutral nickname and did not force her either direction. When she was 5, she decided she was a girl. There's also been cases of botched circumcisions, where the parents decide to just raise the child as a girl. At young ages, those children know they are boys. This reminds me of a joke I once heard. When a man missed his regular golf outing with his best friend, the friend asked about it. "Well, you've always wondered why I've never showered with anyone else in the locker room.", the man replies. "It's because I was born with both male and female genitalia, and I've been too embarrassed to let anyone know until now. I missed our golf date because I was consulting with my doctor about this. Next week, he's going to sew up the vagina." "No way!", says his friend. "Have him cut off the balls. Then, you can hit from the red tees!"
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Post by Vene on Dec 18, 2011 19:35:17 GMT -5
To me the real issue is while a young child can know what gender they are, are they capable of understanding the ramifications of any decision they make? (To which I freely admit that I have no idea and would defer to the experts) I think it's worth pointing out that hormone blockers are what would be used at that age and their effects are completely reversible once they're no longer used. Cross sex hormones can be given later (these are the hard things to reverse).
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Post by John E on Dec 18, 2011 19:43:25 GMT -5
To me the real issue is while a young child can know what gender they are, are they capable of understanding the ramifications of any decision they make? (To which I freely admit that I have no idea and would defer to the experts) I would venture to guess no, but you can still let the child live as their chosen gender for the time being, and as I understand it (granted, my knowledge of the subject is VERY limited) there are things you can do, like certain hormone treatments, which are more-or-less reversible. Then when they're old enough to understand the ramifications of their decision better (say, late teens or twenties), they can choose whether they want to make the change permanent or not.
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Post by canadian mojo on Dec 18, 2011 22:40:31 GMT -5
To me the real issue is while a young child can know what gender they are, are they capable of understanding the ramifications of any decision they make? (To which I freely admit that I have no idea and would defer to the experts) I think it's worth pointing out that hormone blockers are what would be used at that age and their effects are completely reversible once they're no longer used. Cross sex hormones can be given later (these are the hard things to reverse). Am I right in thinking that with the blockers that the child would be playing developmental catch-up with their age group if they chose to go off them? It could lead to the classic 'pick on the runt' situation but that in itself isn't enough of a reason to say no.
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Post by Vene on Dec 18, 2011 22:55:27 GMT -5
I think it's worth pointing out that hormone blockers are what would be used at that age and their effects are completely reversible once they're no longer used. Cross sex hormones can be given later (these are the hard things to reverse). Am I right in thinking that with the blockers that the child would be playing developmental catch-up with their age group if they chose to go off them? It could lead to the classic 'pick on the runt' situation but that in itself isn't enough of a reason to say no. They pretty much just delay puberty, the rest is normal development.
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Post by N. De Plume on Dec 19, 2011 9:36:06 GMT -5
It could lead to the classic 'pick on the runt' situation but that in itself isn't enough of a reason to say no. Right. If bullying is a problem, that problem lies with the bullies. … As to the poll, “Yes” is just 7 votes behind “No.”
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Post by The Lazy One on Dec 19, 2011 11:27:36 GMT -5
Hormone blockers at a young age actually pose no problem, as it has been used to treat precocious puberty for quite some time with no ill effect. This then allows them to have more time to consider the ramifications of being transgender as well as allowing for more brain development to make the determination. While many who know at a prepubescent age which gender they are, many also do not really know, which is why it is important to ensure they have options. The next step would be to then introduce low levels of the target hormones (oestrogen or testosterone) for a short time (probably 4-6 weeks). This won't be enough to really affect physiological changes from them, but is plenty of time to see how they mentally respond to the hormones. If they do terribly on them then it's clear they need to re-evaluate themselves (with a therapist's help, as it is a complicated matter; also, not all transgendered are transsexual), but if they do well on those hormones then it's also pretty clear that it's the correct path of treatment. Why is it important to start hormone replacement therapy at a young age instead of waiting till they're an adult? Easy, it ensures they do not have improper development. This goes far beyond things like facial/body hair and breast development, as the hormones during puberty also change bone structure, such as the width and tilt of the pelvis and the broadness of the shoulders. This also makes transition cheaper (as hair and breast removal are not exactly that cheap) and safer (as you don't have to worry about as many invasive surgeries, whether they go for crotch alteration or not), it also allows them to grow up in the appropriate gender role. As for them being informed of everything that's going on with it, that's already done. The current Standards of Care used in the diagnosis and treatment of trans patients really makes sure of that (and in fact goes too far with its restrictions, but that's another topic). In fact, them being informed is vital as part of the diagnosis itself, even before working to find the correct forms of treatment, so I really am not concerned at all about the patients being uninformed, even when they're 11. Ah, I didn't know that. I was leery of letting children start the hormonal treatments younger because of my experience taking hormonal birth control to control my endometriosis- it's kind of fucked with a lot of things (highlight for TMI)- it gave me really bad acne, caused my breasts to increase by two cup sizes, and while it controlled the abdominal pain, it caused me to bleed much more heavily. Because of that I would have reservations about introducing hormone pills to a child who hasn't even begun puberty yet, but from what you're saying it doesn't do the same sorts of things. Thanks, it's always good to learn new things.
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Post by Vene on Dec 19, 2011 11:32:42 GMT -5
Lazy, even the full hormone treatments won't do that, you weren't given cross sex hormones. HRT for a FtM transsexual would actually mean no period would happen and no breast formation would happen. Whereas for a MtF transsexual a period is impossible, but breast growth is the desired outcome. Also, they wouldn't be hormone pills, they'd be hormone blockers, there is a huge difference between the two.
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Post by The Lazy One on Dec 19, 2011 11:35:12 GMT -5
Lazy, even the full hormone treatments won't do that, you weren't given cross sex hormones. HRT for a FtM transsexual would actually mean no period would happen and no breast formation would happen. Whereas for a MtF transsexual a period is impossible, but breast growth is the desired outcome. Also, they wouldn't be hormone pills, they'd be hormone blockers, there is a huge difference between the two. Yeah, I'm realizing that. When I think of "hormones" I think of the birth control pills, but it's becoming pretty clear that they're too different things. Thanks for the information, I understand the process better now.
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Post by Random Guy on Dec 19, 2011 12:25:31 GMT -5
There are actually quite a few children who came out as transsexual long before 11, and without any prompting. This video is probably the best example I've found:
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Post by The_L on Dec 20, 2011 10:56:56 GMT -5
Aww, she's adorable. :3
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Post by Oriet on Dec 20, 2011 11:25:04 GMT -5
Alright, I'll try to address questions brought up. If I miss one just ask again and I'll address it. With bone structure: Once your bones have developed, that's it. There really is no altering them. Hormones won't do shit, and surgery really isn't an option. This is especially true with vital structures such as the pelvis; just think about how debilitating a person cracking a hip is, and then realise that changing it's overall shape and tilt (which then also interferes with the spine) would be far more debilitating. Shoulder width also cannot be changed, as that'd involve adjusting the clavicles and likely the ribcage as well; since you said you had work done on one shoulder I'm sure you can imagine how much worse that would be. Height also cannot be changed, and that's one of the things set from pubertal development. There is facial feminisation surgery, but it really doesn't alter bone structure. Instead it redistributes fat, more than hormones alone do, but it shouldn't be done until the patient has been on full HRT for a good 1-2 years, so that the hormones have time to work. Another thing many get is a trachea shave (reduces the prominence of the Adam's apple), but that's again not bone being dealt with. Testosterone blockers don't actually do that much with hair growth, other than a slight lightening of colour and finer texture. This does make it less visible and softer, but again is only a slight change. Oestrogen supplements do affect hair growth quite a bit more, though again only to an extent, however it also does a lot to prevent (of halt) male pattern baldness. I don't know what effects oestrogen blockers have on hair, though I'd assume it'd be similar to post-menopausal women, and testosterone supplements will give an increase in darkness and thickness of body hair, as well as causing beard growth. I believe it can also lead to male pattern baldness, but I am pretty unsure on that. Now, HRT will adjust muscle mass and fat distribution, which actually does far more than most people realise. Hormone blockers do have some effect, but not as much as cross-sex hormones do. As an example here is a picture of me before testosterone blockers, and here is a picture of me after two years of being on them. I can't give a picture of me having been on oestrogen for a while yet as further comparison as I've just started on them, but as you can see while there is a noticeable change it is still minor. (As for having your arm in a sling for two years, there should be physical therapy to help regain muscle mass to help "even out" the appearance, strength, and weight of both sides, though it likely will always be weaker.) Again, hormone blockers can be used to delay puberty, either until an appropriate age or they are able to make a well thought out determination on whether transition is right for them or not. Even if delayed until their late teens (haven't read anything about it being delayed longer than that), either stopping the blockers or adding in cross-sex hormones will then initiate puberty in full, with all of the proper changes that come from that: breast and hair development, skeletal structure, muscle mass, fat distribution, the works. Another reason this is preferable to waiting till after puberty (and especially waiting over a decade after puberty) is because changing the hormones after different hormones developed the body really does impact the patients health. I believe I also read somewhere that only ~23% of prepubescent children who have gender issues actually go on to transition in their teens, I believe they should not start cross hormones until they are in their teens, though I see absolutely no problem with and in fact would encourage using hormone blockers to delay their puberty until they are able to make that decision. [ETA] Yep, it's 23%. From this thesis (near the bottom of page 17): Feelings of transsexuality are often expressed early in neonatal development, a few years after birth, but only in 23% of the cases does a childhood gender problem lead to transsexuality in adulthood (6).
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Post by Magnizeal on Dec 20, 2011 14:32:16 GMT -5
Oriet, you're slightly wrong about the facial surgery. They do actually shave a little bone, on the jaw/forehead/nose/cheeks, as needed. But even there, they can only shave down, and there's only so much bone to go through.
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