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Post by SimSim on May 10, 2009 17:42:39 GMT -5
I just remembered this amusing comic strip on the subject:  There was one of those billboards like the one depicted in the comic there on I-95 in Philly last year. The outcry was also exactly like in the comic. Funny thing is, on I-476(major highway in PA)there is a giant crucifix that can be seen in both the north and south bound lanes of the highway. Nobody has raised a word about it. To me, they represent the same thing, a way of showing people that there are others like them. |
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Post by Old Viking on May 10, 2009 18:45:47 GMT -5
I never let common sense stand in the way of my vindictiveness. I say do whatever it takes to piss 'em off and keep 'em pissed off.
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Post by Armand Tanzarian on May 11, 2009 1:20:20 GMT -5
Heh, whatever you guys say. I guess you nudged me from the "oppose" to "somewhat indifferent" category. Of course, whether you like them or not, reading the responses in the local newspaper is always a bonus.
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Post by atheiess on May 11, 2009 11:23:35 GMT -5
This maybe the case in your area, which is unfortunate, but seeing as I have no way to corroborate your anecdote nor see how this is indicative of the general population or state of the non-religious community, then I'm going to remain sceptical. It is the state of the non-religious community that I have had contact with, which is all I can base my experiences on. But it doesn't matter what the intention of any of this is; whether it's intended to be a positive draw for non-believers or a slam in the face of Christians. Perception is what counts. The media, religious groups, society as a whole see these billboards as negative, so by perception they are negative. This creates an even larger negative opinion of atheism. We are outside of the cultural hegemony, so our opinion and intention will always be quieter than everyone else's until there is a paradigm shift of the cultural norm. I suggested to the group that was putting up billboards around town why they don't try to get positive attention instead of negative attention. When their billboard made the news around Christmas time it was a headline surrounded by "Church donates to local foodbank for holiday meals" and "Salvation Army collects toys for kids." I asked why couldn't they do some charity work instead - get off their asses and help the community and make sure that the community knew that they were being helped by non-believers. SHOW other non-believers that they can be "good without God" instead of just telling them, as actions speak louder than words. What better way to show the world that we have morals and want to do good for society? They showed no interest in this. In fact, I've heard of only a few atheist charity projects - but plenty of billboards and bus ads. Edit: Probably should have also mentioned that the last billboard that went up around here (which was a very tasteful image of Darwin with a caption that I don't recall) was placed right in front of 4 large churches. They could have put it anywhere in the city, but they chose that specific area. If that isn't a provocation I don't know what is. Surely if they want to target non-believers they shouldn't be sticking this thing in front of churches where they are less likely to find them? |
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libertyprime
Junior Member
Hey, it was acceptable in the '80s.
Posts: 58 
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Post by libertyprime on May 11, 2009 14:28:22 GMT -5
Zabimaru: Yeah, I probably am loking too deep at it. Half a lifetime of english classes does that to a person.... What I was trying to say was that there's no point looking at the morality of it all or whether or not you're dragging yourself down to someone else's level. The important thing in an argument is to make yourself and your opinion known, so go ahead and put the damned ads on the buses.
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Post by Bluefinger on May 11, 2009 14:54:54 GMT -5
It is the state of the non-religious community that I have had contact with, which is all I can base my experiences on. But it doesn't matter what the intention of any of this is; whether it's intended to be a positive draw for non-believers or a slam in the face of Christians. Perception is what counts. The media, religious groups, society as a whole see these billboards as negative, so by perception they are negative. This creates an even larger negative opinion of atheism. We are outside of the cultural hegemony, so our opinion and intention will always be quieter than everyone else's until there is a paradigm shift of the cultural norm. But the problem is with the more problematic religious groups will see ANYTHING the non-religious do as being negative, because they have to see it that way. No matter WHAT you do or say will not change that, and honestly, I don't see how this particular bus ad is doing anything overly negative. You can't win with the very people who are going to be the loudest in opposition. And also, the non-religious are a MUCH larger group than you think, even within the US, and if they actually become more aware of their position, could exert a lot more influence. The only reason they don't is because of the alienation they face. One way to mitigate such alienation is by advertising the presence of like-minded communities and people. The problem with your argument is that ultimately, anything any minority does or says will end up being portrayed as negative simply because they are not liked. In all honesty, simply shutting up and being quiet is far worse than standing out and voicing an opinion, because with the former, nothing changes. I suggested to the group that was putting up billboards around town why they don't try to get positive attention instead of negative attention. When their billboard made the news around Christmas time it was a headline surrounded by "Church donates to local foodbank for holiday meals" and "Salvation Army collects toys for kids." I asked why couldn't they do some charity work instead - get off their asses and help the community and make sure that the community knew that they were being helped by non-believers. SHOW other non-believers that they can be "good without God" instead of just telling them, as actions speak louder than words. What better way to show the world that we have morals and want to do good for society? They showed no interest in this. In fact, I've heard of only a few atheist charity projects - but plenty of billboards and bus ads. Well, one of the largest charities around, and certainly the most transparently operated one is the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, which is a secular charity and does a LOT of work. And considering the amount that has been donated to this charity, compared to what has been put into just this Bus Ad campaign, I think it is safe to say that the charity far far exceeds what is even spent advertising any sort of atheist message. I think that says enough on the matter. Edit: Probably should have also mentioned that the last billboard that went up around here (which was a very tasteful image of Darwin with a caption that I don't recall) was placed right in front of 4 large churches. They could have put it anywhere in the city, but they chose that specific area. If that isn't a provocation I don't know what is. Surely if they want to target non-believers they shouldn't be sticking this thing in front of churches where they are less likely to find them? But like I said, what one group does is not indicative of the community at large. It could just be a case of a concentration of assholes in your area. However, for a group that often gets ostracised, do be aware that for some, it is hard not to lash out. I mean, there's only so much shit one can take in the end of the day. Of course, there are better ways to deal with that instead of putting up provocative signs, but you can't help the behaviour of certain people. Plus, you don't judge a whole group by the actions of a minority. |
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Post by atheiess on May 11, 2009 16:34:05 GMT -5
But the problem is with the more problematic religious groups will see ANYTHING the non-religious do as being negative, because they have to see it that way. No matter WHAT you do or say will not change that, and honestly, I don't see how this particular bus ad is doing anything overly negative. You can't win with the very people who are going to be the loudest in opposition. So if you can't win, why create conflict just for the sake of creating conflict? With every new ad the Christian opinion of atheists is just further reinforced. We are further marginalized, further hated, and further blamed for being instigators. And who do the press back-up 99% of the time? Compared to Christianity non-believers are a tiny group. I've talked to people who are atheists but don't want to be vocal about it because they are embarrassed by all the drama being created by other atheists. Remember that just as outspoken Christians are the one's that get all the attention, so are outspoken atheists. What if these ad campaigns are actually driving people away? We don't know if they are or not. There aren't any statistics out there to suggest that this approach will have any success or how many people are even in the targeted audience. Most ad campaigns are conceived out of statistics that prove the campaign will successfully meet the demographic it is seeking and put a message in their head. The only proven outcome of these campaigns so far is to piss off Christians. I haven't heard of one person who has looked at one of these ads and had an "A Ha!" moment of realization about their non-belief. I've seen a lot of people who are already secure non-believers cheering them on and becoming more bitter, and even more Christians and others biting back and condemning us further. I haven't seen the desired outcome, so why continue? There are minorities, and then there are religious minorities. It's a lot less complicated to argue in favor of physical minorities than those who differ in faith that is supposed to be unwavering. We need to be smarter and approach this more delicately. We need to get the attention while reducing the fallout that comes with it. The Gates Foundation is not an atheist charity. I've heard this kind of argument before. Secular does not equal atheist. A secular charity doesn't do anything to help the image of atheists, it just doesn't affiliate itself with a specific religion. The point I was making is that these atheist groups have time and money to sit around and create ad campaigns - so why can't they focus that time and money on a more positive outcome? Instead of putting up a billboard in front of a church, why can't they go work in the soup kitchen for a weekend wearing t-shirts that contain the name of their organization? What bad things would the press have to say about us then? That kind of action changes opinion, not slapping a quote on a billboard or bus. That may be the case, if this group of assholes was concentrated in one area. These two incidents I talked about happened in two different states (but were quite close together states) by two different organizations. You can also go over to the Dawkins boards and watch how hateful and militant people are over there when talking about this subject. Their intent is pretty clear. I know it's hard to not lash out. In that regards I'm a total hypocrite because I've lashed out in frustration many many times. But restraint, non-provocative tactics, and campaigns based in positive intentions are the best thing we can do. We don't have to be silent. We SHOULDN'T be silent, but right now I see atheists as their own worse enemies. We're supposed to be the enlightened ones, right? Maybe we should start acting that way instead of giving the Christians exactly what they expect of us as "Satan spawn." I don't see these as actions of a minority though. I see these as the actions of every atheist group around me, and tons of people on various online forums. I have seen way more anti-Christian intent behind these campaigns than pro-non-believer. If you want to point out some alternative places for me to look please do, because I haven't found them. |
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Post by Thejebusfire on May 11, 2009 17:57:48 GMT -5
I just remembered this amusing comic strip on the subject: That happens to be one of my favorites. |
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Post by Bluefinger on May 11, 2009 18:44:09 GMT -5
So if you can't win, why create conflict just for the sake of creating conflict? With every new ad the Christian opinion of atheists is just further reinforced. We are further marginalized, further hated, and further blamed for being instigators. And who do the press back-up 99% of the time? But I don't think we are getting more marginalised though. Considering the non-religious as whole are a growing group by percentage, the only way to make sure we are more visible is to at least speak out and make ourselves heard. It isn't conflict for the sake of conflict, it is just voicing our ideas like everyone else! Compared to Christianity non-believers are a tiny group. I've talked to people who are atheists but don't want to be vocal about it because they are embarrassed by all the drama being created by other atheists. Remember that just as outspoken Christians are the one's that get all the attention, so are outspoken atheists. What if these ad campaigns are actually driving people away? We don't know if they are or not. And yet, by population, the non-religious completely out-number the jewish community, and yet the latter wields a fair bit of political clout. The problem with atheists and the general non-religious is that they are effectively a herd of cats. Harder to organise a bunch of individuals together than those willing to act as a group. So it doesn't surprise me if one atheist doesn't like what another one does. Because I'm like that as well. I may not always agree with some of the more outspoken atheists/agnostics, but I'm okay with that. Why? Because I'm glad that there are people willing to be public about their atheism. Fuck the idea that I have to play it down just so to score some brownie points for the religious. When I mean fair representation, I mean that I can be as vocal as the next christian. That's what I want, and I don't give a damn if the christian next to me gets offended. Of course, until I be more vocal about my beliefs, we may find out that we share more in common than we thought, but until one takes the steps to initiate dialog and to be vocal, one will never know otherwise. There aren't any statistics out there to suggest that this approach will have any success or how many people are even in the targeted audience. Most ad campaigns are conceived out of statistics that prove the campaign will successfully meet the demographic it is seeking and put a message in their head. The only proven outcome of these campaigns so far is to piss off Christians. I haven't heard of one person who has looked at one of these ads and had an "A Ha!" moment of realization about their non-belief. I've seen a lot of people who are already secure non-believers cheering them on and becoming more bitter, and even more Christians and others biting back and condemning us further. I haven't seen the desired outcome, so why continue? So wait, putting a fairly simple, low-key message which just was saying in summary "We are good people too" does nothing but piss off Christians? Well then, they sure are going out of their way to be offended in the first place. Also, more anecdotes? There are minorities, and then there are religious minorities. It's a lot less complicated to argue in favor of physical minorities than those who differ in faith that is supposed to be unwavering. We need to be smarter and approach this more delicately. We need to get the attention while reducing the fallout that comes with it. Unfortunately, no matter how approach this, you are going to get resistance. The only way to actually get anything done is to weather the resistance. Honestly, the effort to become more visible and vocal, and for more fair representation is a difficult path to tread in any case. I still don't see how taking steps to be more vocal (such as this Bus Ad) is doing more harm than good. The Gates Foundation is not an atheist charity. I've heard this kind of argument before. Secular does not equal atheist. A secular charity doesn't do anything to help the image of atheists, it just doesn't affiliate itself with a specific religion. The point I was making is that these atheist groups have time and money to sit around and create ad campaigns - so why can't they focus that time and money on a more positive outcome? Instead of putting up a billboard in front of a church, why can't they go work in the soup kitchen for a weekend wearing t-shirts that contain the name of their organization? What bad things would the press have to say about us then? That kind of action changes opinion, not slapping a quote on a billboard or bus. But that's the thing, an atheist organisation might as well be secular for all intents and purposes. And you are wrong about it not doing anything to help the image of the non-religious, because it actually shows that good deeds can be done without directly attributing it to a specific religion, hence secular. That single fact is good enough for me because I don't care about spreading "an atheist message" and winning people over, I just care about getting people to think. Whether this reinforces their belief or not, I don't care, so long as they think about this. An Ad is a pretty effective way to at least bring the matter to people's awareness so they have to think about it. That may be the case, if this group of assholes was concentrated in one area. These two incidents I talked about happened in two different states (but were quite close together states) by two different organizations. You can also go over to the Dawkins boards and watch how hateful and militant people are over there when talking about this subject. Their intent is pretty clear. Militant? So they are planning to blow shit up? Wow, never thought the Dawkins group would go so far as that....  Two different states and two organisations, plus one web community. I don't think that quite covers a wide enough sample (over a wide enough geographical area) to get a clear picture. Also, considering the Dawkins place and how it is, I'm actually quite sceptical of your claims of it being 'hateful' and 'militant'. If what they say is coming across as bad, then why are you at FSTDT?  I know it's hard to not lash out. In that regards I'm a total hypocrite because I've lashed out in frustration many many times. But restraint, non-provocative tactics, and campaigns based in positive intentions are the best thing we can do. We don't have to be silent. We SHOULDN'T be silent, but right now I see atheists as their own worse enemies. We're supposed to be the enlightened ones, right? Maybe we should start acting that way instead of giving the Christians exactly what they expect of us as "Satan spawn." But we aren't 'enlightened', we just don't believe in deities. We don't pretend to be 'better' than anyone else, because we generally just are ordinary people. This Bus Ad campaign has been done in positive intention, but you refuse to see it that way even though message is as non-confrontational as it gets. Plus, just how ARE we going to be more vocal and more fairly represented if we don't take the plunge into the deep end with regards to being vocal? You can't have your cake and eat it in this situation. I don't see these as actions of a minority though. I see these as the actions of every atheist group around me, and tons of people on various online forums. I have seen way more anti-Christian intent behind these campaigns than pro-non-believer. If you want to point out some alternative places for me to look please do, because I haven't found them. Well, sorry to disappoint, but we are ordinary folk. We get annoyed and pissed off like the rest of the world when shit gets thrown our way. Sorry for being human in that respect. You see bad intention because people push back against the flak sent their way. And when the message just happens to be along the lines of "No, We aren't bad people", I guess saying that in rebuttal and publicly is just too much and will hurt a few people's precious feelings and beliefs? When the overall message is not even stating outright that Christians are fools/idiots/etc or being overly mocking, I guess it is not still good enough and non-confrontational enough. Unfortunately, in being more vocal, seeing people get offended/disagree comes with the territory. There's no way around that fact. The message is simple enough, and people want that message to be heard. So when people are trying to stop that message being spread, of course they are going to get a little pissy about it. It isn't so much as being anti-christian or having bad intention, it is called being human. |
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Post by canadian mojo on May 11, 2009 19:36:09 GMT -5
The worst case scenario with this campgain is that you will piss-off the usual lunatic fringe. Since our very existance on this planet is an insult to them and their precious god, it's not exactly a big deal. The best case is that this will make the loonies foam at the mouth in a very public and stupid way and scare a few more moderates over to our side of being deserving of rights and respect. I think that most christians don't think we should be rounded up and shot and when they hear people claiming to be good christians saying that sort of thing it helps drive a wedge and further marginalizes the fringe element.
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Post by Deimos on May 11, 2009 22:10:00 GMT -5
I don't really see the point of the bus ads. I mean it just seems like a waste of money and more of a stupid joke than something serious
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Post by atheiess on May 12, 2009 9:38:48 GMT -5
I don't really see the point of the bus ads. I mean it just seems like a waste of money and more of a stupid joke than something serious It's either a joke or an attempt at insulting people. Either way, not something to be proud of. Found out that the billboards put up in my town were put there by the Freedom from Religion Foundation, not a local group. This is the group responsible for placing the billboards right in front of churches, and they claim to be the largest atheist/agnostic group there is. They have pictures of all their billboards on their website: www.ffrf.org/busbillboard/Some of these billboards are taunting, using almost religious phrases ("Reasons Greetings" and "Sleep in on Sundays") and stained glass windows in them , and some are not. But they all reek of propaganda and provocation. I much prefer the "you can be good without God" message if they have to put up these signs because it speaks for us instead of against someone else. |
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Post by atheiess on May 12, 2009 9:40:57 GMT -5
Didn't mean to make you so angry. I thought we were just debating something. |
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 12, 2009 11:12:35 GMT -5
I disagree with you on why you think the ads are being put up in the first place. It's not to create conflict, though a certain amount of conflict is inevitable when fundamentalists exist (face it, they're pissed off by Teletubbies and Spongebob and Campbell's soup and Will & Grace for Christ's sake). It's about someone who's having a tough time struggling with the idea of being an atheist. I'm sure there are many people who feel ostracized because of their lack of faith, and sometimes it's nice to see a group with the message of "It's perfectly normal to not believe in God, there are other people who think like you, it's nothing to be ashamed of." That's the way I see it. There's nothing that puts this campaign on the same level as an anti-gay billboard or a billboard calling other people sinners.
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Post by Vene on May 12, 2009 12:12:44 GMT -5
I don't really see the point of the bus ads. I mean it just seems like a waste of money and more of a stupid joke than something serious It's either a joke or an attempt at insulting people. Either way, not something to be proud of. How the fuck is it insulting to say "You can be good without God" insulting? Now, if you ask me, I'd say that anything that pisses off fundies is good. But, this is simply saying that atheists exist and we're not necessarily bad people. |
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