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Post by Armand Tanzarian on May 9, 2009 23:27:40 GMT -5
richarddawkins.net/article,3830,Bloomington-Rejects-You-Can-Be-Good-Without-God-Lawsuit-Underway,Indiana-Atheist-Bus-Campaign To quote Rachel Maddow, I need some talking down here. Most, if not all, of us have experienced some kind of bigotry and bad experience in the hands of some fundie. Similarly, most of us are atheists or agnostics. In the USA, especially, we get bombarded with constant messages advertising Christian beliefs, and some of those can be a little slighting. The question is, should atheists really engage in the same petty, loudmouth displays of faith (or lack thereof) as fundies? Seriously, these are not profit-making schemes in any way. At best they say "There are atheists in your midst", at worst, they are designed to piss off fundies. These ads serve little purpose and have little meaning to the majority of people. What would be a better way, is support groups and communities, of which FSTDT is an excellent example. The New York Times reported a billboard in South Carolina advertising one such support group, doing social things that in most small areas are done by churches, sans the praying. In the USA in particular, atheists tend to be slightly by the lack of a like-minded community, and having a sort of church surrogate is a good thing, as long as it doesn't involve getting together and stroking atheist persecution complexes. Bottom line: As much as I'd like to support similar measures, I don't think nonbelievers should descend into the shouting match most fundies excel in. Now its time to talk me down.
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Post by Dr. Waldorf X on May 10, 2009 0:10:09 GMT -5
I just LOVE how only Christians can be offended. [/sarcasm] While I think there are better ways to go about things, they are entitled by the first amendment to be allowed to show their beliefs. Freedom of speech and all. Still, I wish people would stop and consider the possibility that Atheists and other non-Christians can be *gasp* offended. I personally find it quite offensive when I'm told that I'm wrong for not believing in the Christian god.
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Post by dasfuchs on May 10, 2009 7:27:51 GMT -5
I don't think we should be doing exactly like they do (huge loudmouthed campaigns, street corner preeching, door to door salesman style religion, etc.)
Let's for now worry more about keeping the schools educating, that's the single best move we could make towards anything.
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Post by Bluefinger on May 10, 2009 8:03:54 GMT -5
Honestly, the bus campaign simply comes across to me as a "Hey, we aren't so bad, you know" sort of message. It isn't a petty thing, as long as it doesn't go overboard as with what we see with a lot of fundie ads.
It doesn't really seem like we are stooping down to the fundie's level, as much as it seems to me as simply just trying to put themselves more into the public spotlight and to do so in a more positive way. It's PR, not proselytising, so for me, I'm a lot more indifferent to it. If people want to advertise a more secular message, well, why can't they? Sometimes, a good way to bring more people to secular communities is to advertise the presence of like-minded individuals. By letting others know there are groups that have similar ideologies, etc, it becomes easier for people to get together and to be more comfortable about their own beliefs.
In the end, it may not do much in changing perspectives, but it at least makes the non-believer crowd much more visible, to others and to themselves. It isn't going so far as saying "Xianity is wrong! CTHULHU WILL RISE AGAIN!" (though I would love to see an ad like that, just for some laughs), so I don't see a problem with it.
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Post by atheiess on May 10, 2009 13:26:16 GMT -5
Honestly, the bus campaign simply comes across to me as a "Hey, we aren't so bad, you know" sort of message. It isn't a petty thing, as long as it doesn't go overboard as with what we see with a lot of fundie ads. Problem is, the Christian's view their similar campaigns as "Hey we aren't so bad" too. They think they will save our souls and do us a favor. It won't matter how these atheist billboards and bus ad's are presented, they will only be viewed as negative by Christians. Remember that to denounce God is a threat to them, and advertising atheism is an attack in their mind - no matter what the actual intention. I've spoken out about these bus ad's before, and implored atheist groups to not participate. These kinds of tactics will hurt, not help. They will give Christian's something to talk about around the water fountain and focus their hate on. It's difficult to develop a non-provoking method of asking people to think outside of the Bible, just because of the very nature of Christianity itself. The more you push, the harder they will push back. If logic is going to conquer blind faith it will probably be done slowly as more and more scientific discoveries are made and the need for religion becomes less important. The more atheism sticks it's tongue out at Christians the longer they will cling to their beliefs out of shear resistance.
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Post by Caitshidhe on May 10, 2009 13:32:50 GMT -5
*points up* Exactly what Blue said. I don't see it as 'sinking to their level' or anything like that, more of a, "Hey, this is what we are, this is what we think, and we're not bad people." I hate that the only religion that is 'acceptable' to advertise is Christianity. There ARE other beliefs (and lack thereof) out there, and yet every time anybody else says something, the ENTIRE fundie brigade get their collective undies in a twist and throw fits.
I like the atheist bus ad campaigns. I wish they were more widespread. It's a matter of visibility. And as far as I'm concerned, ANYTHING that makes the religious nutwads lose ground is a good thing.
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Zabimaru
Full Member
Always amused and bemused
Posts: 241
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Post by Zabimaru on May 10, 2009 13:39:02 GMT -5
I just remembered this amusing comic strip on the subject:
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Post by Caitshidhe on May 10, 2009 13:42:40 GMT -5
*rightclicksave*
I've never seen that comic but it's hilarious! And, sadly, completely true.
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Zabimaru
Full Member
Always amused and bemused
Posts: 241
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Post by Zabimaru on May 10, 2009 13:48:09 GMT -5
*rightclicksave* I've never seen that comic but it's hilarious! And, sadly, completely true. It's from a nice webcomic called Cectic. There are a lot of other great strips over at cectic.com/Unfortunately the comic isn't updating anymore, but the archives contain some other pearls like this, so I think that people should check it out if they haven't seen the comic before.
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Post by Bluefinger on May 10, 2009 13:48:49 GMT -5
Problem is, the Christian's view their similar campaigns as "Hey we aren't so bad" too. They think they will save our souls and do us a favor. It won't matter how these atheist billboards and bus ad's are presented, they will only be viewed as negative by Christians. Remember that to denounce God is a threat to them, and advertising atheism is an attack in their mind - no matter what the actual intention. I've spoken out about these bus ad's before, and implored atheist groups to not participate. These kinds of tactics will hurt, not help. They will give Christian's something to talk about around the water fountain and focus their hate on. It's difficult to develop a non-provoking method of asking people to think outside of the Bible, just because of the very nature of Christianity itself. The more you push, the harder they will push back. If logic is going to conquer blind faith it will probably be done slowly as more and more scientific discoveries are made and the need for religion becomes less important. The more atheism sticks it's tongue out at Christians the longer they will cling to their beliefs out of shear resistance. But I also said that it isn't just to try to woo the religious, but also to make non-believers more aware that they are not alone and that they don't have to be quiet about their beliefs. I don't want to have to be quiet about mine either, just so someone else's belief is not disturbed in some way. The only way people are going to take the non-religious more seriously is if that very group starts to actually be more vocal, not by a softly-softly approach. And either way, the fundies will complain about it one way or another, because they will find something to complain about. The way to do it, sure, is not to be overly confrontational about it. These bus ads just don't come across as confrontational however. They are also there for bringing other non-believers together by making them more aware of like-minded individuals and organisations. It may piss off the fundies, but practically anything pisses them off, and as long as it helps people find like-minded communities, then so much the better. Sometimes, you have to be more vocal in order to get anything to change.
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libertyprime
Junior Member
Hey, it was acceptable in the '80s.
Posts: 58
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Post by libertyprime on May 10, 2009 14:04:13 GMT -5
Zabimaru, I love how the christians are depicted as straight-laced corporate drones and the houseguy as some sort of hipster who's also apparently quite a bit taller than any other human. That's real fair there.
Personally, I don't think anyones dragged anyone down to any level because there ARE no levels. Sure, I may agree with evolution and stuff, and I may think that the fundie crowd is horrifically wrong and ignoring the evidence but if you ask them they'd say that atheists are horrifically wrong and ignoring the evidence. They believe their rebuttals hold as much weight as we believe ours do. It's all self-important arrogance on the internet really.
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Zabimaru
Full Member
Always amused and bemused
Posts: 241
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Post by Zabimaru on May 10, 2009 14:40:22 GMT -5
Zabimaru, I love how the christians are depicted as straight-laced corporate drones and the houseguy as some sort of hipster who's also apparently quite a bit taller than any other human. That's real fair there. Wow, I think you're reading way too much into how it's drawn. The Christians are merely made out to look like stereotypical people proselytizing. Most people who stop me on the street or knock on my door to blather on about Jesus look like that. Mormons in particular are known for going around with a straight-laced look in shirt and tie. And the guy at the house is looking scruffy to signify that he has just woken up. His apparent height is probably just an illusion from somewhat bad artwork; he is supposed to be standing higher up than them, since they are standing on the steps leading up to his door. At least that's what it looks like to me. I don't think that either party is depicted unfairly. I don't really understand what point your are trying to make here. Yes, both sides think that they are right, that's how things usually are. It would be silly to have an opinion if you don't believe that it's right. That doesn't mean that there aren't any "levels" And I don't understand what part of putting atheist ads on buses is "self-important arrogance on the internet." Buses aren't on the internet - they don't fit through the tubes.
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Post by atheiess on May 10, 2009 15:38:55 GMT -5
But I also said that it isn't just to try to woo the religious, but also to make non-believers more aware that they are not alone and that they don't have to be quiet about their beliefs. I know that it's hard for some people to see beyond the church they were raised in, but if someone is going to give up their blind faith and listen to reason shouldn't they do it by themselves without being taunted by a poster on a bus? The danger I see here is that people who are teetering on the edge of their faith may see a provocation like that and automatically jump to defend the faith they were raised in, and the whole point of the exercise backfires. I've seen it happen! I've seen otherwise reasonable people who probably have no solid faith left in them defend their church from atheists, and it renews their faith. Another problem I have is atheist organized groups. Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I've been to meetings with a couple of different groups and all they do is sit around and think of ways to bash Christians, instead of thinking about positive ways of handling the situation. They try to incite anger on purpose, and I see these ad's as containing that kind of intention too. I complained to a group who was setting up atheist billboards last Christmas time, and the response I got said that the billboards contained messages for only non-believers, not believers, and the fact that it was Christmas when the billboards went up was only coincidence. I don't believe that for one second. These billboards were placed at just the right time to incite the maximum outrage by Christians. Their intentions were wrong, and I was just as mad at them as the Christians in this area were. I know we have a right to freedom of speech and to pass on this message that non-belief is OK, but this kind of campaign can only be anti-productive and I, as an atheist, resent that damage that they are doing.
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Post by Bluefinger on May 10, 2009 16:00:22 GMT -5
I know that it's hard for some people to see beyond the church they were raised in, but if someone is going to give up their blind faith and listen to reason shouldn't they do it by themselves without being taunted by a poster on a bus? The danger I see here is that people who are teetering on the edge of their faith may see a provocation like that and automatically jump to defend the faith they were raised in, and the whole point of the exercise backfires. I've seen it happen! I've seen otherwise reasonable people who probably have no solid faith left in them defend their church from atheists, and it renews their faith. I don't see how the bus ad is 'taunting' either. It is trying to promote a positive message, not a negative one aimed at bashing christians. In this case, there's nothing to be concerned about with regards to your worries. Also, if such things drive people back into faith... well... good for them. If all it takes for them to be religious again is the shock that some people make fun of a religion or simply disagree, then really, I don't think they would have been anything other than being religious. I don't really care if they are or not, because what I ultimately care for is just being represented fairly and to not be hounded for not believing. Whether this drives others back into faith or not is none of my concern, because this isn't about winning people over into non-belief. Another problem I have is atheist organized groups. Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I've been to meetings with a couple of different groups and all they do is sit around and think of ways to bash Christians, instead of thinking about positive ways of handling the situation. They try to incite anger on purpose, and I see these ad's as containing that kind of intention too. If you are seeing that intention, then you are projecting that intention onto the ads. I myself cannot see how it is trying to actively incite any sort of taunt, other than simply say "We can be moral as well but without God". How is that a direct taunt? How is that something more malicious other than to simply rebuke a lot of what the religious crowd try to paint the non-religious as being? I complained to a group who was setting up atheist billboards last Christmas time, and the response I got said that the billboards contained messages for only non-believers, not believers, and the fact that it was Christmas when the billboards went up was only coincidence. I don't believe that for one second. These billboards were placed at just the right time to incite the maximum outrage by Christians. Their intentions were wrong, and I was just as mad at them as the Christians in this area were. This maybe the case in your area, which is unfortunate, but seeing as I have no way to corroborate your anecdote nor see how this is indicative of the general population or state of the non-religious community, then I'm going to remain sceptical. I still don't see how this bus ad campaign can be blamed for another group's follies. So I'll say this again: How is the bus ad being overly confrontational and taunting? How is saying "No, we can be moral without God" so deliberately confrontational that it is only going to damage the reputation of the non-religious crowd? Or should we simply take the shit that is thrown our way and not speak out to simply say "No"? I know we have a right to freedom of speech and to pass on this message that non-belief is OK, but this kind of campaign can only be anti-productive and I, as an atheist, resent that damage that they are doing. You are projecting too much negativity into this campaign, when the only intentions that have been explicitly stated by the organisers is to simply bring awareness. The message isn't "Christianity is wrong", it is "We are good people too". If THAT still offends people, then they can be as offended as they want, because nothing will change that, not even being soft about the message or by being quiet.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 10, 2009 17:29:17 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with the atheist bus or ad campaigns. Even when Christians put up a message on a billboard that says "Jesus Loves You" it doesn't smack of fundamentalism. Remember, this: is not the same as this:
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