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Post by wackadoodle on May 18, 2009 11:23:46 GMT -5
lets say I dragged my child to a building atleast once a week for their entire life where we spent afew hours being told to vote democrat, in a room full of people who love the democrats with all their heart and will abandon him if he ever chooses a different party and constantly reminded him that if he ever leaves the Democrats he will be brutally tortured for eternity.
My child is at best given only the most basic information about other parties, at worst he's raised to think all other parties are evil lunatics with the sole goal of destroying the democrats, the source of all good in the world. At the same time he's always told of the rich history and amazing, miraculous things the democrats have done and how the democrats are the only hope for mankind.
Would you say my child was brainwashed into being a democrat? I would. And yet someone who's been through this exact process with religion will deny up and down that they were brainwashed, that they follow the religion only because their parents did and will claim that they've researched all religions *a claim I could go a whole other topic on* and found theirs to make the most sense. Of course they neglect to mention that even if they actually did look into other religions its only after atleast a decade of their most impressionable years were they were they where constantly told *and threatened* to follow their religion. Seeing as how all religions have the exact same *lack of* evidence its really only a matter of personal preference, which will usually be decided by the lifetime of indoctrination.
I realize theirs some people who do follow a religion without being biased towards it, theirs also perfectly sane people who come to think scientology is a logical choice. I still feel pretty confident in saying that the vast majority of people only follow a religion because they were brainwashed into it. If I was wrong about this their'd be constant changes in religious demographics, yet muslim areas have been muslim for centuries, christian areas have been christian for centuries, most Indians dont seem to turn away from hinduism.
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Post by Nutcase on May 18, 2009 11:38:14 GMT -5
Brainwashing is a really strong term and should be reserved for situations where a person has not only been entirely immersed in a potentially dangerous sub-culture, but often through coercion.
I don’t think it’s an appropriate term for use on people who were dragged to the church potluck every Sunday and had to sit through banal sermons on the Beatitudes and other happy matters – or even through fire-and-brimstone sermons, so long as they were allowed space to grow naturally and explore different points of view.
Such people may decide, in the end, to continue with the religious traditions of their parents. If they choose of their own free will, with a clear understanding of the alternative available to them, then they can’t rightly be called brainwashed.
I also don’t think it’s an appropriate term for most kids who, through osmosis, adopt their parents’ party affiliations while young. If they’re taught critical thinking when they’re little, they’ll be perfectly fit to decide their own affiliation when their older.
If you over-use the term to describe any form of education or indoctrination, it will be stripped of all power and meaning.
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Post by GodIsRealUnlessDeclaredInteger on May 18, 2009 11:38:18 GMT -5
I think the issue is not so much the meaning of the word but the connotation of it. People might even admit the actual things which happened, but vehemently deny the brainwashing since that is only something evil people do and their parents are not evil.
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Post by wackadoodle on May 18, 2009 11:48:00 GMT -5
Brainwashing is a really strong term and should be reserved for situations where a person has not only been entirely immersed in a potentially dangerous sub-culture, but often through coercion. I don’t think it’s an appropriate term for use on people who were dragged to the church potluck every Sunday and had to sit through banal sermons on the Beatitudes and other happy matters – or even through fire-and-brimstone sermons, so long as they were allowed space to grow naturally and explore different points of view. Such people may decide, in the end, to continue with the religious traditions of their parents. If they choose of their own free will, with a clear understanding of the alternative available to them, then they can’t rightly be called brainwashed. I also don’t think it’s an appropriate term for most kids who, through osmosis, adopt their parents’ party affiliations while young. If they’re taught critical thinking when they’re little, they’ll be perfectly fit to decide their own affiliation when their older. If you over-use the term to describe any form of education or indoctrination, it will be stripped of all power and meaning. So you wouldnt call my child brainwashed into the democrats? just indoctrinated? indoctrinated doesnt seem much better. I decided to look up the definition: dictionary.reference.com/browse/brainwashingmost religions have layed off 1, in this century, but they sure as hell threaten them with torture. I dont think anyone will deny priests love using 2. |
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Post by Old Viking on May 18, 2009 13:08:49 GMT -5
To compound the evil, most people have brains that can be washed with a Q-Tip.
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Post by Nutcase on May 18, 2009 13:26:24 GMT -5
So you wouldn't call my child brainwashed into the democrats? just indoctrinated? indoctrinated doesnt seem much better. If you’re going to use terms like “indoctrination” and “brainwashing” to describe the passing of any moral or political idea to a child, then absolutely every parent indoctrinates – every parent, everywhere. And there will always be some sort of protest against what a parent teaches: If I raise my kid to believe altruism is better than selfishness, for example, a Randian might claim I’ve indoctrinated my child away from Objectivism. Indoctrination, in the pejorative sense, is something that happens outside and beyond the normal flow of education; and brainwashing – a systemic, controlled (and coerced) form of indoctrination – is even more abnormal. By using these terms to describe the every-day process by which every child is taught basic ethics, and by which every child acquires his first taste of politics, is to strip these terms of their intended meanings. For brainwashing, this is the first portion of the definition you yourself provided: [Brainwashing is] a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.If all that is required for “brainwashing” a child is simple repetition (definition number 2), then teaching your kid the times-table is a form of brainwashing – or does that term, brainwashing, only refer to the instillation of belief as opposed to fact? |
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Post by wackadoodle on May 18, 2009 13:51:41 GMT -5
Except I cant think of anything that gets indoctrinated into children like religion, parents will say they like the GOP or tell their kids how great gun control is but only in the craziest parents does it reach the level religion does. No one tells their children they'll suffer for eternity for not multiplying right. No one tells their children all humans have a George Bush shaped hole in their hearts. Anyone who takes their kids to weekly NRA meetings since they were born would be considered by most as brainwashing them.
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Post by skyfire on May 18, 2009 16:47:05 GMT -5
"Politics And The English Language" by George OrwellAs mentioned above, the word "brainwashed" has such incredibly negative connotations that people tend towards knee-jerk reactions when they hear the term. As a result, you do have some people who throw the word around deliberately for the sake of shock value. Thus, the word should be used sparingly so as to prevent a further watering-down of its meaning.
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Post by Tiger on May 18, 2009 19:58:49 GMT -5
It's brainwashing when liberals do it. It's teaching your children good values when conservatives do it.
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Post by Paradox on May 19, 2009 1:06:32 GMT -5
Except I cant think of anything that gets indoctrinated into children like religion, parents will say they like the GOP or tell their kids how great gun control is but only in the craziest parents does it reach the level religion does. No one tells their children they'll suffer for eternity for not multiplying right. No one tells their children all humans have a George Bush shaped hole in their hearts. Anyone who takes their kids to weekly NRA meetings since they were born would be considered by most as brainwashing them. You've never been to Georgia, have you? |
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Post by dantesvirgil on May 19, 2009 8:27:30 GMT -5
Well, but gun control is a good example of "indoctrination" on both sides. This is NOT to start another thing on gun control, people.  It's just to say that being raised in a rural, mountainous place myself, plenty of us kids were "indoctrinated" about guns. It was practically a rite of passage. Lots of us got them as early Xmas presents, some of us had to pass a marksmanship test (administered by Grandad or somesuch) in order to go deer hunting -- and let's not forget what a ritual deer hunting can be to people. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with deer hunting, OK? But there are plenty of people who would say there is, and they have also usually be "indoctrinated" against guns by their parents and the culture they came out of. Try telling a dedicated hunter that he was brainwashed into thinking guns were OK (or replace that with "anti-gun" person) and you'll have a similar reaction to when you call someone brainwashed because of religion. Brainwashing, as has already been pointed out, implies that a person is coersively kept from any other information that might conflict with the belief. As in, all other books, internet, TV, radio, information, etc. is actively removed from the person or punitively punished if found. That doesn't apply to most religious people, I would venture to say. |
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Post by Tiger on May 19, 2009 18:54:43 GMT -5
Brainwashing, as has already been pointed out, implies that a person is coersively kept from any other information that might conflict with the belief. As in, all other books, internet, TV, radio, information, etc. is actively removed from the person or punitively punished if found. That doesn't apply to most religious people, I would venture to say. I hide my copy of The God Delusion in my dresser rather than keeping it on my bookshelf for fear of what might happen if my parents find it. |
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Post by Deimos on May 19, 2009 18:59:14 GMT -5
When I think of brainwashing. I think of a brain in a carwash with half naked women frolicking in the soap
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Post by dantesvirgil on May 20, 2009 6:52:43 GMT -5
^^ A much better thought, I would say. |
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Post by Thejebusfire on May 21, 2009 15:10:40 GMT -5
It's brainwashing when liberals do it. It's teaching your children good values when conservatives do it. This is exactly what I was going to say. |
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It's just to say that being raised in a rural, mountainous place myself, plenty of us kids were "indoctrinated" about guns. It was practically a rite of passage. Lots of us got them as early Xmas presents, some of us had to pass a marksmanship test (administered by Grandad or somesuch) in order to go deer hunting -- and let's not forget what a ritual deer hunting can be to people. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with deer hunting, OK? But there are plenty of people who would say there is, and they have also usually be "indoctrinated" against guns by their parents and the culture they came out of. Try telling a dedicated hunter that he was brainwashed into thinking guns were OK (or replace that with "anti-gun" person) and you'll have a similar reaction to when you call someone brainwashed because of religion. 
