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Post by Bezron on May 7, 2010 8:51:39 GMT -5
Here's the thing: intel indicating that the house is dangerous or not, this is fucked up and the cops went way too far. Like far enough that every last one of them needs to be put on leave for a very long time for being a gonzo asshole.
Here's what would happen if SWAT stormed my house (seriously, not pulling ITG shit): my dog, who is basically a floppy rug that licks your face, WOULD bark and advance on them. See, that's what dogs do, especially if there are children in the house that they have grown up with. My damn dog got defensive when the lady across the street picked up my daughter while we were in the yard. And there is a good chance that I wouldn't be able to get the dog calmed down in the .03 seconds before these assholes start shooting. And then they'd have to shoot me, cuz I'm seriously taking one or more of them down for shooting my dog (ok, maybe a little ITG). I mean, I love that dog more than I love my wife for fuck's sake!
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Post by Vene on May 7, 2010 11:47:29 GMT -5
And people call me a lunatic when I say I don't trust cops. I know, right? I mean, why can't I make sweeping generalizations from one incident? If this one is bad, imagine how bad they are every day, all of them. This is why I also think all atheists are sociopathic, homicidal assholes, just look at what happened at Columbine! Oh, I almost forgot, all golfers cheat on their wives, all politicians have gay sex in bathrooms with prostitutes, and all football players have secret dog fighting rings. This was a serious mistake and needs to be heavily scrutinized, but you better offer a lot more than this. Granted, in my experiences cops are not assholes, they've helped me in the past. I've known students who were in the criminal justice program at my alma mater, they went in because they wanted to protect people, not to exercise control over others. Oh, and even when I've had them called on me, they've been cooperative and fair.
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Post by Sleepy on May 7, 2010 13:00:04 GMT -5
Wow. It seems like the SWAT team's actions constitute child endangerment more than the parents' possession of marijuana.
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Post by booley on May 7, 2010 13:40:47 GMT -5
And people call me a lunatic when I say I don't trust cops. I know, right? I mean, why can't I make sweeping generalizations from one incident? ... Except there isn't just one incident. Even on this board alone we have other examples of cops violently over reacting. After a while, it begins to look like a pattern.
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Post by Vene on May 7, 2010 13:46:08 GMT -5
I know, right? I mean, why can't I make sweeping generalizations from one incident? ... Except there isn't just one incident. Even on this board alone we have other examples of cops violently over reacting. After a while, it begins to look like a pattern. And how much of this is confirmation bias? Sure, there is too much of a military mindset going on with cops. I have no doubt about that. But, I have to question the degree of which this is a problem as well as if our response is appropriate. Like, are the problems with SWAT teams a reason to distrust the random traffic cop?
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Post by Dragon Zachski on May 7, 2010 14:09:10 GMT -5
After a while, it begins to look like a pattern. And how much of this is confirmation bias? THISSS This this this this THIS!! I cannot overemphasize how much "THIS" the quote is! I was sick of two things while pointlessly arguing in the video comments. 1. People who believed the SWAT Raid went flawlessly because "no one was killed", and would adamantly believe that all policemen are flawless individuals who ONLY better society, never harm it. 2. People who would not stop saying the word "pig", took glee in hearing about cops dying, said the cops in this incident should be shot (!?), and that the citizens of America should stop being lazy and overthrow the government, instituting anarchy. Together, these two groups of people made up 90% of the video comments
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Post by m52nickerson on May 7, 2010 14:15:29 GMT -5
Except there isn't just one incident. Even on this board alone we have other examples of cops violently over reacting. After a while, it begins to look like a pattern. There are approximately 800,000 law enforcement personnel in the U.S. You would need to show over 8000 officers involved in incidents of violent over reaction just to get 1%. ....then you would be hard pressed to say 1% is a pattern.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on May 7, 2010 15:04:13 GMT -5
I saw the video a day or so ago, when my brother sent it to me. It's disturbing enough to begin with, when you hear the dogs yelping in pain after being shot, but it gets worse when you see that there's a child present in the house. Regardless of what really happened, the video is still pretty difficult to watch.
If the story the homeowner is telling is true (or mostly true), I hope he can sue the hell out of the department. The PD should be doing more to investigate tips before kicking in doors, especially if there's a child present. The child endangerment charges are a laugh -- a tiny little bit of weed isn't going to harm anyone, and the parents sure as hell weren't the ones who fired weapons in close proximity to the kid.
Regarding whether or not cops are trustworthy: It's reasonable for us to approach any person in a position of authority with some degree with skepticism & suspicion, but only so long as one does so without actually accusing the individual of specific crimes or subjecting them to abuse based solely on the fact that they're a law officer. In other words, being careful about what you say to an on-duty cop is one thing, yelling out "Fuck the police! Die pigs!" is quite another.
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Post by aboveathletics on May 7, 2010 15:10:26 GMT -5
Except there isn't just one incident. Even on this board alone we have other examples of cops violently over reacting. After a while, it begins to look like a pattern. And how much of this is confirmation bias? Sure, there is too much of a military mindset going on with cops. I have no doubt about that. But, I have to question the degree of which this is a problem as well as if our response is appropriate. Like, are the problems with SWAT teams a reason to distrust the random traffic cop? Quite frankly traffic cops and regular officers often do a hell of a lot worse things than shoot family pets. Here are two examples off the top of my head of human victims who were murdered in cold blood by cops. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Bush -shot in the back of the head in the station. His crime was underage drinking. No charges were laid against the officer. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant -Shot in the back while handcuffed. Charges laid only after public pressure in the form of riots. Can we pain the enitre department by incidents such as these? I contend that we can. Not because of what was done by the murderers, but because of what was not done by "good cops." In both cases, police rushed to the aid of the murderers and defended their actions. Evidence was stolen and everything was done to get their fellow officers off. If their duty was truly to protect us, the "good cops" would try to get these monsters off the street. Seeing as we rarely see this happen, it is pretty clear where their loyalties lie.
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Post by Vene on May 7, 2010 15:33:57 GMT -5
Fuck off, I'm not having a conversation with people who ignore what I say. I'm not saying cops are perfect. I'm not saying there's not issues with them being trained more and more like they're military. But those examples are not that fucking many. If you're going to do this, provide better data than a couple incidents.
Does corruption exist? YES! Is it a serious problem in some areas? YES! Does that mean every bloody member of the profession is bad? FUCK NO!
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Post by booley on May 7, 2010 15:45:45 GMT -5
Except there isn't just one incident. Even on this board alone we have other examples of cops violently over reacting. After a while, it begins to look like a pattern. And how much of this is confirmation bias? Sorry but confirmation bias can only go so far. There are examples of police abusing their power going back centuries. So if there is a bias, then many among law enforcement reinforce it. And no I am not saying all cops are like this. But the cop that is abusing his power is a lot more of a problem then the one who isn't. We have examples of random traffic cops abusing their power too.
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Post by Yaezakura on May 7, 2010 16:24:09 GMT -5
The entire point is, while we do have examples of abuse of power, many people do not stop to consider how big the problem actually is. Part of that blame lies with the ease of information access. We have news from so many different places that we totally lose track of all sense of perspective.
Yes, there are problems. There is corruption. No one would ever deny that. The question is, how many problems, how much corruption?
When you see a hundred stories taken from all across the country about cops abusing their power, it's easy to think it's a truly pervasive problem. That's because the hundreds of thousands of stories of cops doing their jobs properly and fairly aren't news-worthy.
There are problems. And all reasonable measures should be taken to address such problems. But these problems are much, much rarer in the grand picture than people seem to realize. Cops, just like everyone else, deserve to be judged based on their individual actions. The very act of being a law enforcement officer is not worthy of contempt like some seem to think it is.
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Post by The_L on May 7, 2010 20:37:18 GMT -5
I'm with Vene and Yaezakura. Yes, the fact that this shit happened is disgusting. But it's the individuals in this particular SWAT team at whom we should direct our ire, not cops in general.
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Post by Thejebusfire on May 7, 2010 21:26:54 GMT -5
Wow. It seems like the SWAT team's actions constitute child endangerment more than the parents' possession of marijuana. My thoughts exactly.
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Post by dasfuchs on May 7, 2010 21:53:12 GMT -5
And how much of this is confirmation bias? Sure, there is too much of a military mindset going on with cops. I have no doubt about that. But, I have to question the degree of which this is a problem as well as if our response is appropriate. Like, are the problems with SWAT teams a reason to distrust the random traffic cop? Quite frankly traffic cops and regular officers often do a hell of a lot worse things than shoot family pets. Here are two examples off the top of my head of human victims who were murdered in cold blood by cops. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Bush -shot in the back of the head in the station. His crime was underage drinking. No charges were laid against the officer. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant -Shot in the back while handcuffed. Charges laid only after public pressure in the form of riots. Can we pain the enitre department by incidents such as these? I contend that we can. Not because of what was done by the murderers, but because of what was not done by "good cops." In both cases, police rushed to the aid of the murderers and defended their actions. Evidence was stolen and everything was done to get their fellow officers off. If their duty was truly to protect us, the "good cops" would try to get these monsters off the street. Seeing as we rarely see this happen, it is pretty clear where their loyalties lie. Oh, oh! Don't forget Skyfire's friend that was tased to death for being an innocent bystander that was a moral compass of the community. As far as the dogs go, yeah, it's bad...anyone have more than the owners saying they were in cages or restrained? I mean, personally, if it were me and I saw a dog of any type charging or being aggressive towards me during a raid....well...it's goin' down. Cops of any branch value their own lives too, despite the movies showing them willing to take a bullet for everyone
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