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Post by priestling on Apr 10, 2011 22:44:36 GMT -5
The point I was trying to make, Norris, is that I'd LOVE to buy the product legally... if I could FIND IT anywhere it was possibly being sold!
When you look for an ultra-rare game and three-dozen different retailers either don't carry it or can't find it in the same span of eight months, what recourse do you have? Case in point, I'd be a happy mo-fo if I could still find a PC copy of American McGee's Alice. The first game, not the new one they're coming out with, but they don't even sell a PC download version on the site! So where, pray tell, am I supposed to find a game I've only ever played a demo level of?
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Post by Shane for Wax on Apr 10, 2011 22:51:21 GMT -5
If you want to listen to music without paying for it there's Youtube. And yeah, you can look at Picassos online. I'm not saying it's wrong to look for free stuff, I'm saying if it's available to buy you shouldn't steal it, and if you can't find it anywhere, to use it legally or to buy it, tough luck. We can't always get what we want. Except for when the people cry to youtube to remove it. A lot of the music I've been enjoying that I can't find in legal form has been yanked from youtube. They have taken some of the best music on Youtube and removed it. I think a good artist would want their music enjoyed by people everywhere. And if they don't, they aren't worth the time of day. As Priestling said, I'd LOVE to buy this stuff legally. But i can't. why? because it isn't available. So I have to rely on finding things around the internet. |
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Post by askold on Apr 11, 2011 0:57:18 GMT -5
This reminds me of mystery science theater 3000. I can't watch it legally in Finland since the series has not been distributed in Finland.
The few DVD's and tapes can't be bought anywhere in europe, I can't buy them from Amazon and have them shipped to europe. And even if I would travel to US to buy them (Is there any other reason to go to US?) and it would be a legal purchase AND I could legally bring them to europe...
Get this: IT WOULD BE ILLEGAL TO WATCH THOSE TAPES/DVD'S IN FINLAND!
(I have torrented the series but only because it is the only way.)
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Post by Shane for Wax on Apr 11, 2011 1:04:18 GMT -5
As ScottH once said: If we as a culture have gotten to the point where the average citizen seriously values the right of Avi Arad (Marvel CEO) to buy himself a bigger jet over the right of creative kids to express themselves, then we, as a culture, are really dumb.
Change the words around as you will.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Apr 11, 2011 2:37:43 GMT -5
Open your mouth and close your eyes, you're in for a big surprise. (It's called the corporate cock, FYI.)
If a company doesn't even OFFER a piece of software/literature/film in your area, fuck 'em. Pirate that motherfucker and if you feel oh so very guilty, mail them some money. That pirated whatever? It still exists. You have a copy. Nobody lost anything. The company never would have received your money anyway.
Unless, Norris, you think it's EVIL THEFT!!!1!!11 to take a picture of any form of visual art? Record video/audio for private home use?
And I would certainly hope that you are consistent enough that you don't record television shows for later viewing. (In the "olden days" this was accomplished with VHS, but now there's digital means)
FYI: You may want to rethink your position so long as you've got Marvel's intellectual property as your avatar.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Apr 11, 2011 3:24:16 GMT -5
If this argument about pirating goes any further I would ask Napoleon splits it into its own thread.
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Post by Haseen on Apr 11, 2011 5:13:42 GMT -5
I'm not selling this, so feel free to steal the shit out of it. (9001 hours in mspaint)  |
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Post by Vene on Apr 11, 2011 8:27:25 GMT -5
If you want to listen to music without paying for it there's Youtube. And yeah, you can look at Picassos online. I'm not saying it's wrong to look for free stuff, I'm saying if it's available to buy you shouldn't steal it, and if you can't find it anywhere, to use it legally or to buy it, tough luck. We can't always get what we want. And I can download shit from youtube and convert it to an mp3 (by the way, it is downloaded when you watch it anyway, or else you wouldn't be able to watch it). Is there a real difference between this and a torrent? The end result is the same. Edit: I also want to know how this works. I buy an album, I let a friend copy it to his/her computer, is this wrong? If so, what if I make a mix cd and share it? If one of these isn't wrong, how is this different than a torrent? The scale is obviously different, but it's the same action. I really am curious where the line lays and why that is where the line is. |
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Post by Kit Walker on Apr 11, 2011 8:45:28 GMT -5
If a company doesn't even OFFER a piece of software/literature/film in your area, fuck 'em. Pirate that motherfucker and if you feel oh so very guilty, mail them some money. That pirated whatever? It still exists. You have a copy. Nobody lost anything. The company never would have received your money anyway. So the owner of the rights to some software or artwork or whatever has no right to determine how that product is brought to market? For example, Stephen King has no right to determine whether or not his novel "Rage" is available? He wants the book out of print, doesn't want it around anymore. I bet I could find a scan of it online. Is it my right to steal a copy that I have no right to just because he has withdrawn it from print? I do believe that many museums and art galleries forbid cameras in their exhibits for just that reason. However, there is a massive difference between taking a photograph of a painting or sculpture and having that painting or sculpture. There is also a big difference between recording a movie off of cable (even using DVR) and downloading a complete copy of the DVD. [quote[And I would certainly hope that you are consistent enough that you don't record television shows for later viewing. (In the "olden days" this was accomplished with VHS, but now there's digital means) FYI: You may want to rethink your position so long as you've got Marvel's intellectual property as your avatar.[/quote] Using a DVR to watch a television program and downloading the entire series with DVD quality are not the same thing. Neither is taping something on a VHS tape. First and foremost, those really are for personal use. Torrents are open to every yahoo with the right program on their computer. My DVR is not. And yes, my avatar is a Marvel character. It is not, I point out, the entire Rob Liefeld run on Captain America reproduced for free for any idiot to download. The point I was trying to make, Norris, is that I'd LOVE to buy the product legally... if I could FIND IT anywhere it was possibly being sold! So you can steal it because you don't have a way to buy it. I get what you're saying. I just fail to see where "but it's really rare!" translates to "I'm just gonna take it". I think there is a term for this, oh yes, it is S.O.L. Y'see, there was a time where when a book was out of print or a store was sold out of a game, you just went without it. You can live without a copy of the game, right? Then watch eBay like a hawk. As ScottH once said: If we as a culture have gotten to the point where the average citizen seriously values the right of Avi Arad (Marvel CEO) to buy himself a bigger jet over the right of creative kids to express themselves, then we, as a culture, are really dumb. And how, pray tell, would downloading "Iron Man" or the latest issue of Captain America or the complete series of "Wolverine and the X-Men" be a kid expressing themself? Oh wait, it wouldn't. It would be stealing something. Really, how would me downloading any of those things I just listed, which are all available in stores right now, be different from shoplifting them? Honestly. What is the difference between downloading all of the Scott Pilgrim series and walking out of a Barnes and Noble with it? And it isn't Avi Arad (who is the CEO of Marvel Studios, not Marvel Entertainment) I'm worried about. Kieron Gillan, Timothy Green II, Val Staples, those are the cats who need their comics to sell. On the TV and Movie side of things, you've got writers and lesser known actors who get royalty checks from DVD sales. So yeah. Not everyone involved in every single aspect of creating mass media art is a multi-millionaire. So... you don't want people to enjoy something like that? You can see picassos on the internet. You can see Michelangelos on the internet. Why can't you see some comic books or enjoy some music? 1) There is a difference between a picture of a Picaso on a computer screen and an actual Picaso painting. 2) If the owner of the rights to something wants to put it out there free of charge, then by all means. Right now, web cartoonist Dave Kellet of Sheldoncomics.com has put a PDF of his most recent book out on his website for free. And I downloaded a copy. Because he owns it, not a copy of it but the trademark and copyright, and it is his choice. 3) There is a difference in purpose between a comic book or piece of music and a painting. Part of the point of a painting is it being on display, being able to view it up close, etc. You can't say that there isn't a difference between seeing the Mona Lisa and seeing a picture of the Mona Lisa. However, a comic book is meant to tell a story. You get almost the full experience from reading a PDF as you do from reading a paper copy. People who see a picture of the Mona Lisa will still want to go to the Louvre and see it in person (if they were ever so inclined). People who pirate the complete run of Jack Kirby's The Demon aren't going to buy the collected edition. They already have a copy, and it didn't cost them fifty bucks. On that note, so as to not derail this thread further, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You're never going to make the "but I can't afford it/find it/buy it legally" argument sound like anything other than self entitled dissonance reduction to me, I'm never going to make the "it doesn't matter if you can't buy it anymore, you don't have the right to download it for free" argument sound like anything other than corporate whoring to you. We'll just go in circles. Edit: I also want to know how this works. I buy an album, I let a friend copy it to his/her computer, is this wrong? If so, what if I make a mix cd and share it? If one of these isn't wrong, how is this different than a torrent? The scale is obviously different, but it's the same action. I really am curious where the line lays and why that is where the line is. To me, scale makes all the difference when it comes to sharing the stuff. If I give a girl a mix CD of romantic songs that I have purchased, only she gets that CD. If I put my copy of "Along Came A Spider" up on torrent, millions of people will then download a CD and take away sales from Alice Cooper. I see the same difference between DVR and bittorrent - at most, three people will watch something off my DVR and it is going to get deleted as soon as they do. That's not to say I'm not slightly hypocritical on this issue. There are things on my laptop that I downloaded illegally. But I see it like speeding - I know its wrong, there's no way to argue I have the right to do it, and if I get caught I will accept my punishment because I deserve it. That said, those illegal downloads are positively dwarfed by the legally purchased stuff on my iTunes account, my Amazon Unbox player, etc. |
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Post by Vene on Apr 11, 2011 9:02:14 GMT -5
If it's about the deprival of sales, how about retail chains that sell used games and/or music? When I buy a used game the company that created it gets no money. How about if I buy an album, download the whole thing onto my computer, and then sell it on eBay, actually let's make this more fun, I buy it cheap on eBay, download all the songs, and then sell it. At this point I am actually making money from somebody's intellectual work.
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Post by Kit Walker on Apr 11, 2011 9:06:04 GMT -5
If it's about the deprival of sales, how about retail chains that sell used games and/or music? When I buy a used game the company that created it gets no money. How about if I buy an album, download the whole thing onto my computer, and then sell it on eBay, actually let's make this more fun, I buy it cheap on eBay, download all the songs, and then sell it. At this point I am actually making money from somebody's intellectual work. I view that, that is to say the selling of used games, as the sale of your license to use the game. Which is, as I understand it, how the game companies see it as well (some of them, at any right). That is to say that when you buy a copy of that game, you've really purchased a license to use it. You may sell or transfer that license as you wish. You may not reproduce it. The music is...well, I dunno. I don't have an answer. |
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Post by discoberry on Apr 11, 2011 10:02:52 GMT -5
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Apr 11, 2011 15:06:25 GMT -5
Funny that it took a (half) black president to awaken the latent racism in much of America.
No, wait, that's not funny at all, that's horrible. Why are we still this racist?
Also, Norris, I've seen QUALITY fan made music videos on Youtube. As in, really good stuff. That got taken down. Why? Because the song they used was copyright to blah blah blah.
Said blah blah blah uploaded the original music video to Youtube anyways, meaning the music was there anyways for anyone to enjoy. So, basically, they actually shut down someone's creativity because they didn't like what they were doing with that song, and it had nothing to do with it being available outside of commercial means either.
That is what I mean by copyright laws. They are not meant to stifle creativity, which is what they are doing.
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Post by Caitshidhe on Apr 11, 2011 15:10:07 GMT -5
Because Americans have their heads in their collective sphincters?
I honestly don't know why racism is so prevalent still in America's culture.
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Post by Thejebusfire on Apr 11, 2011 15:47:53 GMT -5
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