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Post by Julian on Jul 30, 2010 2:20:00 GMT -5
Basically, I believe in "ghosts" (though more like valsa believes), I also believe in Tarot, and other stuff. (I could get into a whole post about Tarot, but suffice it to say, I'm a skeptical believer, and I have a particular seething hatred for scam artists who use Tarot)Please enlighten us! This should be fascinating. How is it done properly and what is the difference between a proper (reading?) and a scam job? Will you get the same answer twice; if not, why not; if so, why? Over to you!
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Post by priestling on Jul 30, 2010 2:23:48 GMT -5
this is going to be good, as I've had readings done and I'm looking into getting a tarot deck myself... *sits back eagerly*
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Post by Art Vandelay on Jul 30, 2010 2:30:51 GMT -5
*Gets the popcorn*
This ought to be amusing.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jul 30, 2010 4:36:04 GMT -5
The difference between a proper and improper reading? Well, really, it's sort of easy to tell, though I would say that most of the time, if you're in like a carnival or faire or such, you'll get an improper reading.
Are they telling you definite things? Do they want money from you? Are they telling you should move x or do x or whatever? And most importantly, are they cold reading? Scam artists. I ran into a Tarot card reader who pulled cards, never had me shuffle, never explained anything, and told me I should move somewhere so I can seek romance with a "girlfriend" (though later changed it to boyfriend when I told her, flat-out told her that I was gay).
And this is the other thing. You don't get the same answer twice. You have trends, but the future is like a picture that hasn't been drawn yet. It has many outcomes, though they are limited by the present.
Example: Mom does many self Tarot readings. Economics is a constant concern of hers. She gets the Coins cards, often, and their relevance to the situation is encouraging her to start her own business that she's been thinking about. She gets this sort of reading often, although it's never the same exact same message. And it's not the only thing that ever comes up.
As far as it being done properly...
1. The person being read (not the tarot reader) should shuffle the deck. This is supposed to transfer their energy to the deck. Or something metaphysical like that. If the Tarot reader does not have you shuffle their deck OR cut the deck, this is another red flag, regardless of whether it actually affects anything or not. 2. You have to think about your question while shuffling it. This does not mean you need to TELL the reader what your question is. You can keep it a secret. 3. The Tarot Reader will then move the cards in a pattern that generally represent the past, present, and future, and aspects of such. And this will generally make a symbol. 4. The Tarot Reader tells you the meanings of each card in the context of the order they came up in and how they feel might be relevant to the situation. Ultimately, however, YOU must interpret the cards and what they might mean. You're the one the reading is about, and ultimately, you have the end in what you think it means.
Other things to note are...
* Tarot is not an exact science. In fact, I wouldn't even call it a science. Everything must be taken with a grain of salt. Mistakes happen, and sometimes, you get a reading that makes about as much sense as "The round square kicked the green yellowish". If the Tarot Reader has done many readings that day, the chance of this happening increases (I've experienced this. I'll do a reading, and then another reading, and both make sense, and then the third reading is gibberish, and I usually feel tired on some level at this point.) * Tarot Readers can also be the ones being Read, so Tarot can be "single player" * Any Tarot card maker company that tells you that you need their cards to really help, ignore them. Tarot can be done with standard issue playing cards, the main difference from those and Tarot cards are actually the difference between a Philips screwdriver and a magnetic Philips screwdriver. * Tarot is, like I said, only a tool. The cards themselves aren't magic or anything. The "power" that they may or may not contain comes from the Tarot Reader and the one being read. * Ignoring the metaphysical, Tarot can work on a psychological level. Like I said, your interpretation always trumps the reader's as long as you have the same information he or she does. You see the set of cards, interpret them in a way that fits your life, and are basically forced into a state of reflection. You may see a future that is actually the result of your present, in much the same way that you can predict a connect-the-dots picture. This allows you to make changes or avoid changes, depending on how you see it. * Back to metaphysical, generally, Tarot can only predict a week in advance, nothing more. The past is also easier to read than the future because the past already happened, the future hasn't happened yet.
Well, there you go. I may have gotten some things wrong. I'm not perfect at it, though I've almost always gotten something out of the cards or seen how they relate to my situation (though like I said, the more I do it in one sitting, the more likely they're to come up gibberish). But, as other pagans and pagan-ish people here have said, anecdotes aren't evidence.
Also, bearing in mind, I've only ever read for myself. I haven't read for anyone else yet. Quite frankly, doing a reading over the internet is hard, lol. So, I wouldn't be able to do a reading, for, say, Julian, and have it make much sense to either of us.
EDIT: And yes, Tarot readings are vague. They have to be. Look at a hammer. The face of the hammer isn't the size of a nail's head, it'd be hard to hit the nail with it. It's wide, has more surface area, and can hit it better because of it. Face it, there's no such thing as exact future prediction. Anyone who says they can do this is a fool or a scam artist, or most likely both. It's either vague or foolishness. If there IS a person that can do this (not discounting the 0.000000000000000000000001% chance), then good for them.
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Post by Julian on Jul 30, 2010 5:42:38 GMT -5
Thanks, that was actually pretty interesting... We'll start with this: EDIT: And yes, Tarot readings are vague. They have to be. Look at a hammer. The face of the hammer isn't the size of a nail's head, it'd be hard to hit the nail with it. It's wide, has more surface area, and can hit it better because of it. Face it, there's no such thing as exact future prediction. Anyone who says they can do this is a fool or a scam artist, or most likely both. It's either vague or foolishness. If there IS a person that can do this (not discounting the 0.000000000000000000000001% chance), then good for them.Isn't that also what the charlatans do? Make the hammer as big as possible and hope they hit something/anything and their 'target' makes a connection... There was actually an extremely good chapter in a book I'd thoroughly recommend called Bad Science which covered an interesting problem with hindsight confirmation bias. There's a bit more on it here. www.badscience.net/2010/04/lucia-de-berk-a-martyr-to-stupidity/The machine gun analogy fits here, partly because the scatter gun mechanism was meant to depict something random (say drawing cards for instance), but the critical part is then going over and reducing the target by drawing a tiny circle around what it hit and saying it was uncanny that it hit that exact spot. [apologies with the delay in replying - got a few deadlines today so this is coming in the cracks...]
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Post by Julian on Jul 30, 2010 7:07:04 GMT -5
Example: Mom does many self Tarot readings. Economics is a constant concern of hers. She gets the Coins cards, often, and their relevance to the situation is encouraging her to start her own business that she's been thinking about. She gets this sort of reading often, although it's never the same exact same message. And it's not the only thing that ever comes up. OK, so... Putting aside for one moment the potential vicious circle, of if her thought or subconscious (or whatever the claimed mechanism is) for having to think about the questions while shuffling the deck, influences the cards, and then when the cards are dealt, and again it's her personal interpretation and creativity for the reading of the cards that are dealt, which I don't think I'm badly misrepresenting (correct me if I'm inaccurate), the question is thus. Given she is preoccupied a little with financial matters and that she is probably putting more weight on those particular cards in the readings as above, do you think that thinking about these matters while shuffling the cards causes the pentacles to come out with greater frequency - OR - do you think that given the extra weight and significance she's putting on them, consciously and subconsciously, she just thinks that they're coming out more often? Would it be possible to note what cards are drawn when thinking about this stuff and after 50-100 draws, seeing if they're turning up with any more frequency than other cards? Likewise, it could be compared to cards being drawn when not thinking about anything at all in a random shuffle without the metaphysical bit, or thinking about a question that was a polar opposite of the normal question style, and seeing if there's any overlaps between the two sets of frequencies.
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Post by matante on Jul 30, 2010 8:58:04 GMT -5
Here's how I see it personally:
How does intuition work? Things that bother you are often things you don't have complete information about. Reason doesn't like drawing conclusions when it's obvious you won't be able to narrow your answers down to anything useful, but it doesn't mean your brain will leave the question aside entirely. It's going to connect the dots and squint its mental eyes and look at the blurry picture and decide it looks like something. That something is intuition, and sometimes it can steer you toward an answer. Rational people won't take it literally, but it can bring inspiration to anyone.
Tarot is one of the many ways you can help your "subconscious mind." You have cards associated with general notions that cover the basic aspects of human life, randomly (or not, if you believe otherwise, that's not what I intend on arguing about) matched, and you focus on how they tell something about your current concerns. For every pair of cards, your brain tests a dozen ways it could relate to you before you're aware of anything, some of which it might not have considered previously. At the end, you may feel like you learned something, not because you obtained new information, but because your sorted the one you already had better.
Now, you might just be looking for a pat on the back before making a move you're not sure about, feel taken care of, and otherwise be reassured. That's not bad either, if that does the trick for you.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jul 30, 2010 12:20:25 GMT -5
I will say there's a difference between using a hammer on a nail and using a mallet on a nail. But the fact of the matter is, Tarot can't provide perfect future predictions. No such thing exists. There's "There may be a disaster, minor or not, that ends up more positive for you" vague, and then there's "This could mean anything from fish to houses" vague.
To answer your question in the first place, I believe that her preoccupation with finances is causing the pentacles to come out more often. However, it is possible that it is confirmation bias, though really, when the majority of her readings are mostly pentacles, it doesn't seem like it to me.
It would be possible, yes, to do a scientific experiment on it. Do I believe that there could be a scientific conclusion? Probably not.
Also, choosing to not think about a question while shuffling the cards is a valid thing to do. At that point, you're letting your subconscious ask the question for you. The question you didn't ask might become clear to you in the reading.
Now, bearing in mind, everything I have experienced is, obviously, an anecdote. I am not a scientist, I do not claim this is a science. My own experiences have led me to believe it's true, but I'm willing to admit that I'm subject to confirmation bias and the like.
Also, I may not be 100% correct about Tarot. I presented it as best as I know it.
And finally, matante summarized the psychological aspect of the cards best.
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Post by Old Viking on Jul 30, 2010 14:31:12 GMT -5
I've always intended to look into Tarot, but my alchemy experiments take so damned much of my time ...
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Neon
Junior Member
Posts: 65
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Post by Neon on Jul 30, 2010 16:09:27 GMT -5
I have played around with Tarot, and while I enjoy it, I don't believe it works via any supernatural means..you get a random assortment of cards each time they are shuffled and selected, you know the preset meaning to the cards and then you interpret what they mean according to what you were setting out to find out(if anything). I can't see where the divine is interceding into that at any point.
It's not that it's useless, I find it to be very useful for sharpening up psychological analysis skills. I just don't think there is anything metaphysical going on. That's just my two cents though, and I don't mean that as an offense to anyone, especially not you Zachski, you're being very reasonable in discussing it and that is rare..most people are very defensive about it.
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Post by worlder on Jul 30, 2010 16:16:33 GMT -5
Well I'm not so big on making a future prediction using such a method.
I'll be more impressed if a single hand managed to figure out some major events in my past.
But even then.
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Post by John E on Jul 30, 2010 16:27:59 GMT -5
Tarot: for entertainment purposes only.
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Post by worlder on Jul 30, 2010 16:38:47 GMT -5
Tarot: for entertainment purposes only. Now I'll be impressed and nothing more.
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Jul 30, 2010 18:05:59 GMT -5
Used a Tarot deck as a prop in my tabletop RPG days. It was there as a plot device and helped advance the story in weird ways, fact is any type of randomiser (like dice) could have done the same thing.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jul 30, 2010 18:33:52 GMT -5
Tarot: for entertainment purposes only. Generally, I can't think of one actual way Tarot changed my life. Add "insight into your own psyche" to that and I'll agree with it.
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