|
|
Post by Her3tiK on Jun 8, 2011 14:21:32 GMT -5
dsc.discovery.com/fansites/dirtyjobs/mike-rowe-senate-testimony.htmlMike Rowe, host of Discovery Channel show "Dirty Jobs", appeared before the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation on May 11, on the severe shortage of skilled workers in jobs like construction and repair. I don't know how reliable this number is, but if it's true it's terrifying. Not so much that there are that many openings in the job market as it is that nobody seems to be around to fill them. In response to this situation, Rowe has started a non-profit group, mikerowWorks, to help address this problem by helping to fund scholarships and trade schools that specialize in the skills needed to fill these positions and keep US infrastructure maintained. I don't know how much it'll help, but I'd be lying if I said jobs like welding or electrical engineering didn't appeal to me more than some office job.
|
|
|
|
Post by ltfred on Jun 8, 2011 17:11:31 GMT -5
Very likely bullshit.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dragon Zachski on Jun 8, 2011 17:20:57 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Distind on Jun 8, 2011 17:26:39 GMT -5
Not entirely bullshit, ask where those skilled tradesmen where trained. Likely it was by the company that hired them, through a journeyman program or such. Now try to find a program like that which has existed in the last ten years. Hell, twenty.
I'm coming out of college, a reasonably well trained and competent software engineer. People don't want to take the time for me to learn a fucking interface I don't know before I'm up to full speed as a hire, they sure as hell aren't investing in journeyman programs anymore. For reference, in the last month I've learned 5 new integration interfaces and created two others.
Companies are expecting people to show up with the exact skill set they need, rather than someone capable of learning them. It's how I've gotten hired twice, I had exactly what they were looking for, and I was desperate enough to take what they were paying.
The gap exists because no one can train for a position on their own, even the best education programs aren't going to teach you the finer points of exactly what you're going to have to do, it must come from on the job experience with exactly what is being done. And no one wants to pay someone while they figure that out.
|
|
|
|
Post by ltfred on Jun 8, 2011 17:33:50 GMT -5
The actor is arguing that structural unemployment (unemployment caused by a deficit of education or experience, rather than a deficit of demand) is high. There's no evidence to suggest that this is the case. In fact, the high unemployment rate is entirely due to the plummeting demand causined by plummeting consumer confidence caused by overleveraged household debt and a crashing housing market for the middle class. There's no reason to suggest why the number of educated people would suddenly increase. That makes no sense. www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1 |
|
|
|
Post by Dragon Zachski on Jun 8, 2011 17:40:26 GMT -5
The actor is arguing that structural unemployment (unemployment caused by a deficit of education or experience, rather than a deficit of demand) is high. There's no evidence to suggest that this is the case. In fact, the high unemployment rate is entirely due to the plummeting demand causined by plummeting consumer confidence caused by overleveraged household debt and a crashing housing market for the middle class. There's no reason to suggest why the number of educated people would suddenly increase. That makes no sense. www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1You do have a point, actually, and your logic is mostly sound... ...however, one thing I've learned is that several fields are "Master's or High School Graduate or Go Home", especially in the tech support field. You either need to be a complete master at it to be worth hiring, or you need to be so unqualified that they can pay you minimum wage for reading a script. Unfortunately, many technical colleges go up to bachelor's, sometimes not even that. If you want to get a higher education, you'd better hope that there's a university that actually has higher degrees for it, AND that your credits will transfer. I think the real situation is that it's a little bit of column A, little bit of column B |
|
|
|
Post by Distind on Jun 8, 2011 17:46:42 GMT -5
The actor is arguing that structural unemployment (unemployment caused by a deficit of education or experience, rather than a deficit of demand) is high. There's no evidence to suggest that this is the case. In fact, the high unemployment rate is entirely due to the plummeting demand causined by plummeting consumer confidence caused by overleveraged household debt and a crashing housing market for the middle class. There's no reason to suggest why the number of educated people would suddenly increase. That makes no sense. www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1Now that rings pretty true, I was mostly considering the existance of the gap, which is true, but frankly those jobs have been open, shit like a Paper engineer, or packaging engineering, no one thinks to go into it but if you do you can make good money. It's not a cause of the current unemployment so much as an ongoing problem with employeer expectations, at least how I've seen it. |
|
|
|
Post by Vene on Jun 8, 2011 17:50:31 GMT -5
The actor is arguing that structural unemployment (unemployment caused by a deficit of education or experience, rather than a deficit of demand) is high. There's no evidence to suggest that this is the case. In fact, the high unemployment rate is entirely due to the plummeting demand causined by plummeting consumer confidence caused by overleveraged household debt and a crashing housing market for the middle class. There's no reason to suggest why the number of educated people would suddenly increase. That makes no sense. www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1I don't think that Rowe ever said it was the cause of the recession and such high unemployment, but it very much can be a factor. I can also tell you that it is 100% truth that companies don't want to hire people they have to spend time training. To use another anecdote to add to Distind's, I got a temp job last summer for a food company because they were looking for a full time supervisor. They had already been looking for months and simply needed somebody to do the hourly tests. So I was hired to do that while they looked for somebody. I was there for a while while they searched and stuck around while she was trained. But the point is that during a recession it was a company that had a hard time finding somebody with the exact skill set they wanted. |
|
|
|
Post by erictheblue on Jun 8, 2011 20:56:27 GMT -5
There is a welding school in the city where I live. Whether it's true or not, they have been running ads with stats very similar to those given in the OP in an attempt to draw students.
It is possible that everyone is working off the same script that was dreamed up and has no basis in fact. It is also possible, as has been pointed out, that the problem lies with companies not wanting to hire someone they have to train.
Another idea, which was my thought when I saw the ads on TV, is that jobs like that aren't "glamorous." They require effort and you will get your hands dirty. They are also dangerous. Combine, they don't lead to being a "dream job" for many people. In other words, there is a lack of skilled tradesmen because no one wants to do it.
A third idea grows out of where I grew up. Although coal mining did not occur near my hometown, the state where I grew up is famous for coal mining. When my parents grew up, coal mining was a valid career. A person could expect to be able to go to the mines after graduating from high school, work there until retirement, and make enough to raise a family. None of that is true now. The mines are closing and layoffs are common. Some people may see skilled trades the same way - there is less demand, so their chances of getting a job and being able to keep it are slim. This may not be true, but the perception is that it is true. Therefore, less people will want to train in a trade because they do not believe there is a future in them.
|
|
|
|
Post by Aqualung on Jun 8, 2011 21:31:02 GMT -5
Companies are expecting people to show up with the exact skill set they need, rather than someone capable of learning them..... The gap exists because no one can train for a position on their own, even the best education programs aren't going to teach you the finer points of exactly what you're going to have to do, it must come from on the job experience with exactly what is being done. And no one wants to pay someone while they figure that out. THIS And This too. Those jobs just don't pay enough for the labor and hazards involved to make it worth it. |
|
|
|
Post by ltfred on Jun 8, 2011 22:20:31 GMT -5
Another idea, which was my thought when I saw the ads on TV, is that jobs like that aren't "glamorous." They require effort and you will get your hands dirty. They are also dangerous. Combine, they don't lead to being a "dream job" for many people. In other words, there is a lack of skilled tradesmen because no one wants to do it. Theoretically, any job will have people want to do it. If the job is dangerous, unglamorous, has long hours, requires education or generally shitty (janitor and so on), people will still do that job. The employer will simply raise wages, until enough people will come and do it. That means that this is either a) not happening, made up by big buisness for it's own self-interest or b) a market flaw. It might be a market flaw (I don't think it is, but it might be). Buisnesses might be simply refusing to pay people more in a fit of pique. People therefore will not do those jobs, and there are vacancies*. Or, alternatively, somehow the collapsed financial market has made people unable to borrow money or something. What has certainly not happened is millions of people suddenly getting lazy or uneducated. People's temperament does not change over the course of three years. Unemployment is a rate, not a choice. *In that case, the state or local governments need to step in and criticise the buisnesses for underpaying their employees and not providing enough services |
|
|
|
Post by Vene on Jun 8, 2011 22:37:19 GMT -5
Fred, you are ignoring that there really is a problem in the States with less and less young people getting postsecondary education (be it certification, an associates, or a bachelors). And, again, nobody is blaming the recession on this, the recession is being used to draw attention to the problem.
You also fail to see the overall attitude of how the business climate here is, probably because you're not here. A business will not simply raise wages. They don't fucking do that. They just wait longer until they find somebody desperate enough.
|
|
|
|
Post by davedan on Jun 8, 2011 22:39:38 GMT -5
Is the lack of postsecondary qualifications related to the cost of obtaining them.
|
|
|
|
Post by Distind on Jun 9, 2011 5:27:35 GMT -5
You also fail to see the overall attitude of how the business climate here is, probably because you're not here. A business will not simply raise wages. They don't fucking do that. They just wait longer until they find somebody desperate enough. And this is hardly a joke, the place I'm working at now was looking for a single programmer for over a year. I graduated with at least 200 who were having a bitch of a time finding work, in the same city as this place. There are also 4 other colleges in the area with smaller tech programs. And at least 5 of the people who work in other sections of the place are former programmers who couldn't find programming work anymore. They make even less than I do and are generally treated like children. |
|
|
|
Post by ltfred on Jun 9, 2011 5:38:07 GMT -5
Fred, you are ignoring that there really is a problem in the States with less and less young people getting postsecondary education (be it certification, an associates, or a bachelors). Well, why is that? I would suggest it is recession-related. I'm fully aware that that's the buisness climate in some* parts of the US for some industries*. I just think it's hypocritical for them to firstly refuse to pay people well, and then complain when they won't do the job. Hypocritical and unhelpful. People aren't going to get suddenly more willing to get screwed just because you complain about abstinence. *Most? |
|
