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Post by canadian mojo on Jun 9, 2011 6:25:13 GMT -5
Fred, you are ignoring that there really is a problem in the States with less and less young people getting postsecondary education (be it certification, an associates, or a bachelors). Well, why is that? I would suggest it is recession-related. I'm fully aware that that's the buisness climate in some* parts of the US for some industries*. I just think it's hypocritical for them to firstly refuse to pay people well, and then complain when they won't do the job. Hypocritical and unhelpful. People aren't going to get suddenly more willing to get screwed just because you complain about abstinence. *Most? If you can't sell your product for more than you currently are, how do you raise wages? It is pretty much accepted that if you are on the top of the heap you do not have to lower your standard of living for the betterment of the company -- not that doing that would significantly raise wages in the vast majority of businesses anyways. |
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Post by m52nickerson on Jun 9, 2011 6:33:26 GMT -5
The problem is not the recession. The problem existed well before the recession. The problem is that "learning a trade" in the US somehow became looked on as something only unintelligent people did. The push for many years has been to have almost all high school graduates to continue on to higher education. Plumbers, welders, builders don't need college degrees. Here in Florida the average age of all the licensed water plant operators is 50 years old. There is already a shortage of water and waste water operators.
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Post by Aqualung on Jun 9, 2011 9:22:14 GMT -5
Well, why is that? I would suggest it is recession-related. I'm fully aware that that's the buisness climate in some* parts of the US for some industries*. I just think it's hypocritical for them to firstly refuse to pay people well, and then complain when they won't do the job. Hypocritical and unhelpful. People aren't going to get suddenly more willing to get screwed just because you complain about abstinence. *Most? If you can't sell your product for more than you currently are, how do you raise wages? It is pretty much accepted that if you are on the top of the heap you do not have to lower your standard of living for the betterment of the company -- not that doing that would significantly raise wages in the vast majority of businesses anyways. And this is why I'm deciding to be self-employed; I'm tired of getting fucked over every place I work. Like the last company I worked for, their prices are higher than anywhere else in town yet they're always busy, they donate money and products to community events and organizations, and then they turn around and lay off a bunch of people, cut hours and freeze wages. This country worships the almighty dollar just as much as God. Fuck em all. |
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Post by Vene on Jun 9, 2011 10:14:22 GMT -5
Fred, you are ignoring that there really is a problem in the States with less and less young people getting postsecondary education (be it certification, an associates, or a bachelors). Well, why is that? I would suggest it is recession-related. It made it worse, but no. The cost of education has been increasing beyond the rate of inflation for quite some time now. |
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Post by Bezron on Jun 9, 2011 12:52:44 GMT -5
The problem is not the recession. The problem existed well before the recession. The problem is that "learning a trade" in the US somehow became looked on as something only unintelligent people did. The push for many years has been to have almost all high school graduates to continue on to higher education. Plumbers, welders, builders don't need college degrees. Here in Florida the average age of all the licensed water plant operators is 50 years old. There is already a shortage of water and waste water operators. This. Think back to when you were in high school (a lot closer for some of you than for me, to be honest). How many people do you recall saying "I want to be a welder, plumber, carpenter"? It was a pretty limited group. How many people can you recall talking about other, white collar type jobs? Do you remember your job fairs or career days (do they still have those?). yeah, you had your military booth, maybe a booth from the local trade school. but far and away the largest portion of the booths were from universities and white collar professions. Accounting, computer related, media, teaching, etc. Hell, even where I went to high school, which was fairly rural, I can only recall a couple of people who actually wanted to be mechanics. Everyone who I know of who got into construction or the labor trades will tell you about how they kind of fell into it because they needed money and stayed because they had aptitude. |
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Post by Vene on Jun 9, 2011 13:03:44 GMT -5
The people who I know who wanted to do things like mechanics and such were actually one of the biggest dumbasses in the school. Not exactly the kind of person you want fixing shit.
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Post by rookie on Jun 9, 2011 14:33:35 GMT -5
The people who I know who wanted to do things like mechanics and such were actually one of the biggest dumbasses in the school. Not exactly the kind of person you want fixing shit. Well, you don't have to be the most well read, literate, sophisticated SOB in the world to be a grease monkey. But to assume a competent mechanic is a dumbass is wrong. It's no different than assuming that anyone from Alabama is an inbred hick. |
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Post by Bezron on Jun 9, 2011 14:36:20 GMT -5
The people who I know who wanted to do things like mechanics and such were actually one of the biggest dumbasses in the school. Not exactly the kind of person you want fixing shit. Well, you don't have to be the most well read, literate, sophisticated SOB in the world to be a grease monkey. But to assume a competent mechanic is a dumbass is wrong. It's no different than assuming that anyone from Alabama is an inbred hick. Ever been to Alabama? This assumption isn't THAT far off... |
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Post by jackmann on Jun 9, 2011 14:46:57 GMT -5
The people who I know who wanted to do things like mechanics and such were actually one of the biggest dumbasses in the school. Not exactly the kind of person you want fixing shit. Well, you don't have to be the most well read, literate, sophisticated SOB in the world to be a grease monkey. But to assume a competent mechanic is a dumbass is wrong. It's no different than assuming that anyone from Alabama is an inbred hick. I think that was Vene's point; these people were dumbasses, and therefore wouldn't be competent mechanics. |
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Post by Vene on Jun 9, 2011 15:06:02 GMT -5
The people who I know who wanted to do things like mechanics and such were actually one of the biggest dumbasses in the school. Not exactly the kind of person you want fixing shit. Well, you don't have to be the most well read, literate, sophisticated SOB in the world to be a grease monkey. But to assume a competent mechanic is a dumbass is wrong. It's no different than assuming that anyone from Alabama is an inbred hick. That's the problem, the people who wanted to do it were so stupid I don't think they could do it. I've worked with maintenance mechanics in the past and I would have to consider them intelligent people in order to keep the machinery in a factory running. They know shit I don't know and one of them is one of the smartest people I know. I don't see the high school dumbasses who said they wanted to be mechanics being able to do the job with any level of competence. |
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Post by ltfred on Jun 9, 2011 17:15:19 GMT -5
Well, why is that? I would suggest it is recession-related. I'm fully aware that that's the buisness climate in some* parts of the US for some industries*. I just think it's hypocritical for them to firstly refuse to pay people well, and then complain when they won't do the job. Hypocritical and unhelpful. People aren't going to get suddenly more willing to get screwed just because you complain about abstinence. *Most? If you can't sell your product for more than you currently are, how do you raise wages? Modern companies always* pay the minimum wage they possibly can to their employees. If their employees have no bargaining power at all, they'll be paid the minimum required to live^. They do this while selling their product for the maximum value they possibly can. This means that the company makes as large a profit on every employee as possible. But what happens if a company pays less money that they possibly can, and nobody wants to do the job? Well, the company is actually making a loss because it doesn't have enough employees. If it raises wages, it would still be making a profit on all these employees, but it would be able to make more money, because it would be selling more stuff. *Assuming self-interest, assuming no fraud or market flaws, ect. ^ Exept in certain circumstance like during mass immigration, when they will pay less. See the Jungle by Upton Sinclair. |
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Jun 9, 2011 19:12:17 GMT -5
ltfred, the logic in your first paragraph is exactly why, regardless of recession or not, we're still maintaining a downward spiral.
Businesses don't make the money they want, so they don't spend as much money on their employees. They employees don't get as much money, so they spend less money on things provided by businesses. So the businesses don't make the money they want, so...
The onus lies on businesses to actually pay their employees worth a damn so that said employees can not only afford their bills, but also to go out and buy an HDTV, so that the businesses receive more money so that they pay their employees worth a damn...
Unfortunately, this would involve making trickle-down economics WORK. What really happens in the "correct" scenario is that employees get more money, they spend it on a business's services, and then the business pockets the profit and still pays the employees shit.
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