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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 31, 2011 7:36:01 GMT -5
Because it just isn't possible to pretend that your relationship outside of class doesn't exist. Why should you have a sort of special relationship with the teacher? And if word gets around, rumors spread, you can be accused of preferential treatment (and if the student is of the opposite sex much much worse).
I really think you're confusing "being friendly" and "being friends." I'm not saying that I am a strict authoritarian all the time. I chat with my students before and after school and I love having fun in the classroom. But I would never invite a student out to lunch or to the movies, or invite them to a party, etc. like I would my real friends. I'm a 22-year-old college graduate and grad student: there is no reason for me to be making friends with 14 and 15 year olds. I'm friends with my colleagues and peers because there is no authoritarian relationship between us, which as the sandman pointed out, is vital to maintain.
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Post by Vene on Jul 31, 2011 9:33:48 GMT -5
I find it hilarious that this law, and you, think that "friend" and "facebook friend" are equivalent.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 31, 2011 10:05:30 GMT -5
I realize that "friend" and "Facebook friend" are not always equivalent but it still isn't appropriate for students to have so much access to their teachers' personal lives. And I also realize that there are privacy settings: but why does a teacher need to friend his or her students on Facebook? Teachers and students can (and should) be friendly to each other, but anything that erodes the teacher-student dynamic (however slight) should be met with caution.
All it takes is for you to friend one student, then that student tells everyone how Mr. Cestlefun17 has a Facebook account, then all your students are friending you. The last thing I need in the classroom is to be distracted with talk about a picture I put up last week or some event I attended the night before. And as a teacher, if I see something compromising in one of my Facebook friends'/students' pictures it puts me in the awkward position of "Do I need to report this?" If I don't report it I may get in trouble later and if I do report it I may be seen as being nosy.
This is all subject to opinion. All I can say is that as a teacher it would make me incredibly uncomfortable and it is always better to be safe than sorry. Nothing productive can come out of friending students on Facebook (until they graduate). I think it is a perfectly reasonable district policy to prohibit this conduct on the teachers' part. Obviously making it a criminal action goes too far, as is prohibiting friending students once they graduate.
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Post by Vene on Jul 31, 2011 10:20:31 GMT -5
There is a shockingly elegant solution. Don't accept the friend request. This is a personal decision, not one for a government to make, which you do seem to agree with. This being a personal decision is exactly why it's a stupid law.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 31, 2011 10:24:22 GMT -5
I don't know exactly what this law does: if it makes this activity a criminal (or even a civil) violation it goes too far. If it directs all school districts in the state to institute such a policy, with reasonable disciplinary action for violations, then I would say it is completely reasonable.
Every business and organization has standards of professional conduct. This is no different. As the government runs the public school system they have the right to draw up standards of professional conduct for the employees of the school system. Things like this don't just cause hassles for the teachers but the administration as well.
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Post by kristine on Jul 31, 2011 10:31:52 GMT -5
I can understand the feelings of the teachers out there - the need for the line between educator and confidant of 'friend' but I think this law crosses huge lines of logic in certain ways:
-the law should not apply to anyone over 18 as then it is stepping on the rights of ADULTS
- the law should not apply to anyone who is graduated - after graduation why should people not be able to be friends?
- the part about ANY social messaging sites - Linkdin is a work/business related site but could be considered a 'social network' and I think teachers (at the college level) could be great resources as business contacts.
For the under 18/high school crowd - Sorry for you kids who don't post sexual activities on line and are mature enough to know how to tow the line when at school - But the law would kinda makes sense considering other laws. As a teacher, would be bound by LAW to advise law enforcement if they know someone under 18 is having sex with someone over 18 - when you post that you had a great time hooking up with that college student at the beer bash you snuck into last night - well, to CYA and SAVE THEIR JOB the teacher would have to report you - you and your parents would get a visit from social services and the college student's life is ruined.
No - if someone needs the lessons because they missed school - you can get them over e-mail if your under 18...of course that's not what this law is saying and without alteration - it's crap.
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Post by caseagainstfaith on Jul 31, 2011 10:31:52 GMT -5
I don't know exactly what this law does: if it makes this activity a criminal (or even a civil) violation it goes too far. If it directs all school districts in the state to institute such a policy, with reasonable disciplinary action for violations, then I would say it is completely reasonable. Every business and organization has standards of professional conduct. This is no different. As the government runs the public school system they have the right to draw up standards of professional conduct for the employees of the school system. Things like this don't just cause hassles for the teachers but the administration as well. Here is a link to the full bill www.senate.mo.gov/11info/BTS_Web/Bill.aspx?SessionType=R&BillID=4066479 |
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 31, 2011 10:38:30 GMT -5
kristine: I agree with you 100% I don't have time to read the full bill right now. Most of it just seems like standard cautionary measures against inappropriate sexual conduct. The text regarding social networking sites is exactly what I predicted it would be: Like I said, it directs every school district to come up with its own policy that takes inappropriate social networking communication into consideration. So long as "former student" is only construed to mean "former student who has not yet graduated" (any judge would probably interpret this to mean this anyway, as judges can interpret laws so as to avoid absurdity -- still, it could be clarified) then this provision is perfectly reasonable. Does this law apply to universities and colleges?? I don't see that anywhere.
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Post by Vene on Jul 31, 2011 10:47:41 GMT -5
Teachers also cannot have a nonwork-related website that allows exclusive access with a current or former student. Which is the real problem. Any social networking site will have private messages of some sort. As such, "exclusive access." This little bit contradicts what you said a few minutes earlier about this law going too far. And here's a little scenario for you. Let's say that some kid has an aunt (or uncle) who is a teacher. Let's say that said student goes to the same district said aunt teaches at. Let's say that said aunt is said kid's teacher at one point. This would mean that these two being friends on facebook is illegal. Think we've got a little problem now? |
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Post by kristine on Jul 31, 2011 10:48:55 GMT -5
Like I said, it directs every school district to come up with its own policy that takes inappropriate social networking communication into consideration. So long as "former student" is only construed to mean "former student who has not yet graduated" (any judge would probably interpret this to mean this anyway, as judges can interpret laws so as to avoid absurdity -- still, it could be clarified) then this provision is perfectly reasonable. Does this law apply to universities and colleges?? I don't see that anywhere. as there are students who fall behind and students who have graduated would still be 'former students' I would think that line should be changed to 'students under the age of 18' |
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 31, 2011 12:35:18 GMT -5
What does it contradict? I don't think teachers and students should be hooking up on any social networking site.
Not illegal, just against district policy. I don't see the big deal: so an aunt and nephew can't be Facebook friends for a few years. Whoop-dee-do. The line would just be too blurry: well John is the second cousin of Mr. Smith so they're allowed to be Facebook-friends but Jenny is the great-niece of Mrs. Johnson so they can't.
There is still a relationship of superior/inferior even with 18-year-old students and you don't want to be seen as playing favorites or giving preferential treatment. What if an 18-year-old posts a picture of him drinking? He's under 21, so you'd probably have to report it. What if an 18-year-old posts a comment on your picture saying "Hey Bill you look really cute." Now you have to report it because you need documentation that you nipped any flirting in the bud before any potentially damaging rumors start spreading. This all just creates more headaches not just for the teachers but also the administrators who have to deal with it.
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Post by Vene on Jul 31, 2011 13:15:37 GMT -5
It contradicts where you said this shouldn't be illegal. This isn't district policy, this is law. Stop with the strawman.
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Post by the sandman on Jul 31, 2011 13:42:36 GMT -5
What I don't understand is why it has to be black and white. You can't be equals in the classroom, so you can't be equals outside of the classroom? Why? My teacher is above me when I am in class studying a subject that they are trying to get me to understand, yes; but outside of that, what stops us from having a friendship? I guess I'm failing to see why it can't be both. Two reasons. Firstly, because the vast majority of teenagers are not emotionally capable of the compartmentalization necessary for such a dual-status relationship. Hell, most adults aren't capable of it. Secondly, a lot of the teachers active on social networking sites are younger, newer teachers, who may only have a few years between them and the students. (Think about it. The average age difference between a new high school teacher and a senior in high school is really close to the age difference between the senior and a freshman. Pretty much peers.) Engaging in any sort of relationship that does not fall into the teacher/student dynamic only makes it much harder for that new teacher to function as an authority figure in the classroom. It makes it that much harder for the new teacher to learn the skills and techniques and professional habits utterly necessary for the job. (Something to remember: you don't learn to teach in college. You learn it the first few years you have your own classroom. The first three years of a teaching career is basically trying desperately to not fuck it up so bad the kids are behind when they leave your room. Adding in juggling a dual-nature relationship with students based on location would make that nearly impossible.) It's not something schools like to talk about, but "inappropriate" relationships between high school teachers and students are more common than you think. That crazy blonde teacher who slept with her student, went to jail, and then married him when she got out of prison is not an isolated incident. What you might not know is that the boy's parents sued the holy shit out of the school district. Schools are so terrified of this sort of thing that they are doing whatever they feel is necessary to prevent it. And since it's fairly obvious that a considerable number of new teachers simply do not have the slightest goddamn clue about what professional behavior even is when working with teens, the administration is going to force them to comport themselves properly. It sucks, but that's the reality of the situation. |
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Post by cestlefun17 on Jul 31, 2011 14:52:14 GMT -5
Vene...please think things over twice before you criticize people.
The law does not make teacher/student Facebook friendships illegal. It mandates that each school district draw up a policy that includes a number of provisions, one of these being to forbid this activity. The law is only broken if a school district does not come up with such a policy. If you are a teacher who friends a student, you are in violation of your school district's policy (which was made because of state mandate), not in violation of any state law.
States do this all the time, provide mandates (through laws) that school districts must adopt.
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Post by Passerby on Jul 31, 2011 15:04:28 GMT -5
If cybersex is the main focus of this bit of overcompensation it should already be covered by existing laws and ethical boundries preventing sexual liasons with those in a position of trust. From my point of view cybersex, talking dirty, and exchanging pornographic images for sexual gratification are sexual acts. If those aren't already classified as such in existing law, then scribbling a few notes in the margins would fix the problem better than this unenforcable farce.
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