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Post by Amaranth on Aug 22, 2011 12:51:03 GMT -5
1. It's dangerous? What isn't? Every place in the world has dangers. And they chose to go there of their own volition. That's dangerously close to the Fox News justification that "all media sources are biased," therefore what Fox News does is okay. It is, at the very least, false equivalence. But yes, they went there of their own volition. Knowing that, they share responsibility for the outcome. Is it right to serve 8 years for crossing a border? No, but that does not alleviate their own part in this. |
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Post by malicious_bloke on Aug 22, 2011 12:51:48 GMT -5
WE ARE CURRENTLY AT WAR WITH THIS COUNTRY. IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO GO VISITING IT. THEY WILL NOT HESITATE TO KILL YOU JUST FOR BEING AMERICANS. At war with whom? Technically the war against Iraq ended when the incumbent government was toppled. And I haven't heard anything about a declaration of war against Iran. |
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Post by Kit Walker on Aug 22, 2011 13:34:20 GMT -5
I agree that they took an unnecessary risk approaching the border to less than, say, ten kilometres. But cestlefun17, Norris, you're condemning them for travelling to Iraq in the first place, and that I disagree with. In 2009, Iraq, admittedly still not exactly a shining example of a stable state, was not anymore the civil-war-ridden hellhole of 2005-07, and Kurdistan tends to be the most peaceful Iraqi region. Making a trip there wasn't unreasonable. No, I condemn their decision to go that close to Iranian border. I would think going to Iraq for hiking was a bad idea, but going close enough to Iranian border to blunder over it is Darwin Award worthy. The governments of the USA and Iran have openly hated one another for decades, so you are fucked with a rusty iron bar if you get too close. They don't deserve 8 years in an Iranian prison for a crime they didn't commit, of course not. But had things gone differently, if they were being released, it would have been an earned (if more harsh than truly deserved) object lesson in the caution required for traveling abroad. |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Aug 22, 2011 13:48:10 GMT -5
I just don't think it's right to put all the blame on people who were just innocently hiking and made a mistake. I'd hate to be out driving and suddenly go into the bad part of town on accident and have something happen to me but then it would be my own damn fault cause I knew the risks of going there in the first place.
All the arguments before the second page were victim blaming with a side dish of 'oh but of course they don't deserve that punishment'. Instead of 'they don't deserve that punishment, they made one stupid mistake'. That's what I have a problem with.
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Post by Amaranth on Aug 22, 2011 13:58:54 GMT -5
I just don't think it's right to put all the blame on people who were just innocently hiking and made a mistake. Strawman. It doesn't look like anyone's placing all the blame on them. Saying they have some responsibility is not the same. Intentionally distorting arguments and trying to bypass personal responsibility with an appeal to emotion really doesn't help any. |
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Post by syaoranvee on Aug 22, 2011 14:16:21 GMT -5
I expect us not to blame the victim. Along with some semblance of not sinking down to the fundies' level. Oh, and that the US embassy or the home US gov't can do something to get them out of the problem. We don't have a embassy in Iran, we haven't had the care to have one since the hostage crisis that happened at our embassy in the 80's. Sure, the government could bargain for their release, however, Iran and US relations are very poor and it's likely Iran will bargain for something ridiculous for their release, seeing how we've left people to die in that part of the world before, the odds of a release are not favorable. Oh, and eight years isn't so bad when the realize that the charge of espionage in Iran is supposed to be automatic death. Oh and it is possible to legally cross into Iran as a american citizen, however it's a very long process to do so: travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1142.html |
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Post by Old Viking on Aug 22, 2011 14:22:11 GMT -5
Hiking is to blame. I take naps. No problems.
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Post by Amaranth on Aug 22, 2011 14:52:20 GMT -5
Hiking is to blame. I take naps. No problems. I call for a blanket moratorium on all hiking. |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Aug 22, 2011 15:04:46 GMT -5
I just don't think it's right to put all the blame on people who were just innocently hiking and made a mistake. Strawman. It doesn't look like anyone's placing all the blame on them. Saying they have some responsibility is not the same. Intentionally distorting arguments and trying to bypass personal responsibility with an appeal to emotion really doesn't help any. Good thing I wasn't really debating and you were avoiding my posts as much as possible then, hm? |
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Post by Amaranth on Aug 22, 2011 17:09:48 GMT -5
Good thing I wasn't really debating and you were avoiding my posts as much as possible then, hm? Ah. Dishonesty is okay because you aren't debating. Good to know. |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Aug 22, 2011 17:19:06 GMT -5
One wonders who is dishonest. The one who says they try to ignore everything I say [when it's pretty apparent they apparently have a type of heat-seeking when it comes to my posts] or the one who is pointing out it isn't a debate and the fact that there has been victim-blaming in any way, shape, or form.
It seems all you're capable of is pointing out logical fallacies in a thread that is not a debate. I know you're intelligent and better than that.
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Post by Amaranth on Aug 22, 2011 17:42:29 GMT -5
[when it's pretty apparent they apparently have a type of heat-seeking when it comes to my posts] Bullshit. Stop playing the persecution card and try sticking to the issues at hand. Or are you unable because you know you've built a house of cards built on lies and emotional appeal? Logical fallacies aren't more valid because something is not a debate. They're still fallacies. And as to it being all I can do, my prior posts in this thread alone demonstrate that's false. But you probably already knew that and are being dishonest again. |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Aug 22, 2011 18:11:21 GMT -5
Who said they are less valid cause it isn't a debate? I'm saying it's inconsequential. Not worth worrying over.
I have nothing more to say on the issue. What more do you want me to say? They made a mistake. Something should be done to make sure they get brought back home safely and not thrown under the bus like other tourists in the Middle East have been. There's your TL;DR.
I for one hope the government does something to lessen the sentence even more or get them off the hook and I await any results. Regardless of whether the sentence was less than should have been expected.
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Post by Amaranth on Aug 22, 2011 18:46:13 GMT -5
Who said they are less valid cause it isn't a debate? I'm saying it's inconsequential. Not worth worrying over. Being dishonest and disingenuous is not worth worrying about? Woooooooooooooooow. |
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Post by clockworkgirl21 on Aug 22, 2011 18:49:05 GMT -5
There is some victim blaming going on for sure.
Let's say a woman goes to a seedy bar and drinks until she's so drunk she can barely stand. Some men see this and think JACKPOT. She is raped.
She is stupid as hell, yes. But is she responsible for the outcome? Even a little bit?
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