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Post by lighthorseman on Sept 1, 2011 1:26:56 GMT -5
Of course. But, depending on your ethics, causing unfathomable suffering isn't necessarily "evil". I know that sounds strange, but consider, for a moment, prison. I'm pretty confident when I say that putting people in maximum security prisons for long stretches of time causes pretty unfathomable suffering too, but you won't find many modern Westerners who would call the prison concept "evil". I would suggest that people committing genocide probably relate to their role in the causing of others to suffer in a very similar way that modern Westerners relate to causing people to suffer in prison. In broad terms. I get what you're saying, but the point is about the actions, not the people who performed them. Since the dawn of time, pain and suffering have been considered bad, at least for the person enduring them. Since we as a society understand this, we should strive to avoid repeating our ancestors actions. I agree with you. But thats probably because we have similar social perspectives (Canadians and Australian cultures are, in broad terms, pretty indistinguishable). The point to remember here (and it can be difficult to do so, I know) is that culture is relative, and just because things seem like obvious, fundamental truths to us, it doesn't necessarily hold that way for everyone through time, and, more importantly, just because we believe what we believe, there is nothing inherently superior about our cultural conditioning. We like it because it's ours, but beyond that, it is no more special or "right" than that of the Aztecs or Romans.
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Post by ironbite on Sept 1, 2011 2:01:11 GMT -5
Killing off or enslaving another people for the sake of exploiting resources is, without a doubt, evil. Anyone who makes excuses for them is deluding themselves.
Ironbite-or just plain stupid.
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Post by lighthorseman on Sept 1, 2011 2:39:02 GMT -5
Killing off or enslaving another people for the sake of exploiting resources is, without a doubt, evil. Anyone who makes excuses for them is deluding themselves. Ironbite-or just plain stupid. And yet... every culture on Earth and through out human history has practiced some form of slavery, with slavery only really becoming questioned in any sort of fashion for about 150 years, and most places considerably later than that, if at all. So either its without a doubt, evil, and therefore easily 98% of humanity has been evil, or... it is without a doubt evil, so far as our Western liberal democratic post industrial culture is concerned, and it is, in fact, a subjective belief. So if you're a member of our culture, yes, slavery is evil. No question. It WOULD be evil for you or I to take and keep slaves. People who don't belong to our culture, no. Because to them it simply isn't, and to condemn members of another culture by the standards of one's own is simply wrong. Arrogant and wrong. Note well, I am not defending slavery. I am condemning belief in cultural superiority.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Sept 1, 2011 2:59:01 GMT -5
I agree, for the most part. However, there are certain values which are more conductive to preventing human suffering, so in that sense, some values are better for the overall human population than others.
As such, I'd argue that shunning genocide is superior to condoning it. Does that mean that we're all morally superior to the people living in past eras? Not necessarily. Still, some of our values are better for humanity. Likewise, it's quite possible that historic cultures had other values which were more effective than ours.
Using an example: I wouldn't claim that Canadian culture is superior, overall, to Saudi Arabia's, but I would rank Canadian values regarding women's rights as more conductive to quality of life, and therefore preferable.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 1, 2011 3:05:55 GMT -5
This whole thread stinks of assumptions and bad history as well as bad cultural anthropology.
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Post by lighthorseman on Sept 1, 2011 3:37:03 GMT -5
I agree, for the most part. However, there are certain values which are more conductive to preventing human suffering, so in that sense, some values are better for the overall human population than others. As such, I'd argue that shunning genocide is superior to condoning it. Does that mean that we're all morally superior to the people living in past eras? Not necessarily. Still, some of our values are better for humanity. Likewise, it's quite possible that historic cultures had other values which were more effective than ours. Using an example: I wouldn't claim that Canadian culture is superior, overall, to Saudi Arabia's, but I would rank Canadian values regarding women's rights as more conductive to quality of life, and therefore preferable. This is treading dangerously into subjective territory... I don't want to comment on what is best for everyone in terms of quality of life. Nor does it necessarily follow that slavery is, by default, likely to cause human suffering. Obviously, as with anything, you get extreme examples, but people only put up with so much for so long... when slavery conditions become genuinely unbareable, you get slave revolts. The fact that the vast majority of slaveholding societies continue for very long periods and are generally stable, suggests that in cultures where personal freedom and determination aren't held as the cultural touchstones they are in ours, slavery is not the huge bugbear we think it to be. Just hypotheticalling here... but it is possible that to a Roman slave, the idea of having to find a job, and provide your own meals and shelter and medical care, with no one other than yourself accountable for your own interests (e.g. modern society) might seem just as anathema as the idea of slavery is to us. Likewise, I would suggest that while a great many women in Saudi Arabia don't like the conditions under which they live, apparently a great many more do, otherwise we'd see more resistance. I would also point out that what resistant women from Saud we DO see, invariably have some exposure to Western culture and ideas. The idea of independent, self determined women is a Western, and quite recent idea. Its an idea I am strongly in favour of, but then, I'm a Westerner. There is no reason for anyone who isn't a Westerner to change their opinion to my own. My culture is not inherently superior to anyone else's. Again, in no way a justification of slavery, or oppresion of women, just pointing out that what we think of as "wrong" is greatly dependant on our cultural upbringing.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Sept 1, 2011 4:07:18 GMT -5
While that's true, I'm ranking these values based on the overall suffering they cause, not whether or not the average citizen of any given culture is okay with it. A woman who is sentenced to a lashing because she was raped still suffers regardless of how her countrymen perceive it.
And yes, I recognize that my view on suffering is culturally biased, but given that preventing harm is the very basis of my moral outlook, it would be wrong for me to betray it by not preferring certain values over others. This doesn't mean that I'm judging the people, nor their culture as a whole -- it's a matter of adhering to my own principles. My conscience tells me that suffering is a bad, bad thing, so of course I'm going to dislike cultural norms which lead to it.
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Post by The_L on Sept 1, 2011 16:42:06 GMT -5
Killing off or enslaving another people for the sake of exploiting resources is, without a doubt, evil. Anyone who makes excuses for them is deluding themselves. Ironbite-or just plain stupid. Or refuses to read Bartolome de las Casas--who spent an entire book describing, in great detail, what the Spanish conquistadores around him were doing to the natives and just how evil it was.
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Post by malicious_bloke on Sept 2, 2011 13:07:24 GMT -5
Unless of course you think people ARE resources.
I could make more money selling the iron, copper, calcium and trace minerals contained in the human body than any amount of waffly sentimental crap purveyed by "people".
Where the idea came from that a human life has an intrinsic value, I neither know nor care.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Sept 2, 2011 16:15:03 GMT -5
Millions of years of evolution reinforcing instincts which aid in preserving the species, I would assume.
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