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Post by Doctor Fishcake on Aug 29, 2011 8:21:29 GMT -5
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Post by Thejebusfire on Aug 29, 2011 10:19:58 GMT -5
Why do I get the feeling that this would have never been posted if it weren't for the photo of the little black girl on the article?
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Post by Doctor Fishcake on Aug 29, 2011 13:26:33 GMT -5
It probably still would have, in Britain the Carnival is typically a bit of a lightning rod for casual and often not-so-casual racism.
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 29, 2011 22:54:44 GMT -5
By the standards of the day, yes. All those indiginous people who today complain about their unfair treatment at thge hands of the British might like to spare a thought or two for the indigionous people who were fortunate enough to experience the enlightened rule of the Spanish, or, better yet, the Portugese. |
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Aug 29, 2011 23:24:50 GMT -5
In fairness, the 'standards of the day' don't really justify it. The fact that some had it worse doesn't make it any better, either.
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Post by MaybeNever on Aug 29, 2011 23:30:36 GMT -5
In fairness, the 'standards of the day' don't really justify it. The fact that some had it worse doesn't make it any better, either. Well... when the alternative is between a sort of vacillating suppression of the native culture or the total eradication of the native people, I know which way I'd vote as "better". Not that the British were enlightened imperialists, they just weren't ruthless or determined enough to be seriously evil like most of the other colonial powers. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 29, 2011 23:38:25 GMT -5
In fairness, the 'standards of the day' don't really justify it. The fact that some had it worse doesn't make it any better, either. I'm afraid there I have to disagree with you. Judging past cultures by modern standards is simply wrong. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 29, 2011 23:44:20 GMT -5
In fairness, the 'standards of the day' don't really justify it. The fact that some had it worse doesn't make it any better, either. Well... when the alternative is between a sort of vacillating suppression of the native culture or the total eradication of the native people, I know which way I'd vote as "better". Not that the British were enlightened imperialists, they just weren't ruthless or determined enough to be seriously evil like most of the other colonial powers. "Evil"? I don't think any of the colonial powers were "evil". The Spanish and Portugese, for example, quite specifically thought part of their mandate to colonise the New World was the eradication of evil. Like I was just saying to Mme. AC... judging people of the past by modern standards is wrong. Just as it would be wrong for our descendants 500 years from now to judge us by the standards of their time, rather than our own. Simplest way to keep this in mind, I find, is to remember the Aztecs. You know, the virgin heart ripping out, live baby burning guys... Most people understand that they are an example of an extreme culture developing in isolation. Most wouldn't call them "evil", even though their cultural norms are plainly "evil" by todays standards. Try to think of your colonial forebears in the same light. |
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Post by MaybeNever on Aug 29, 2011 23:54:08 GMT -5
I realize that you of all people, LHM, will delight in being contrarian on this point; but I'm going to risk unpopularity by taking a bold stance and suggesting that genocide is pretty much unequivocally evil.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Aug 29, 2011 23:55:00 GMT -5
I'm not judging the people by modern cultural standards, merely saying that it was still a shitty situation for the indigenous peoples regardless of differing social values and what was "fair for its time", as well as acknowledging that our ancestors' actions had negative consequences that we still see today.
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Post by largeham on Aug 30, 2011 3:21:24 GMT -5
This stinks of Niall Ferguson.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Aug 30, 2011 3:42:47 GMT -5
In fairness, the 'standards of the day' don't really justify it. The fact that some had it worse doesn't make it any better, either. I'm afraid there I have to disagree with you. Judging past cultures by modern standards is simply wrong. If you're making a purely moral judgement (or anything entirely subjective for that matter), modern standards are as good as any other. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 30, 2011 3:48:31 GMT -5
I realize that you of all people, LHM, will delight in being contrarian on this point; but I'm going to risk unpopularity by taking a bold stance and suggesting that genocide is pretty much unequivocally evil. Not because I want to be contrarian, but because I disagree... Genocide is unequivocally evil to a post industrialist Western liberal democratic mindset. However... to a great many people who don't have, or didn't have, a post industrialist Western liberal democratic mindset, it ain't necessarily so. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many examples of it happening, from the Ancient Egyptians through to the Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian/Kosovar mess, and the million and a half examples in between. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 30, 2011 3:53:36 GMT -5
I'm not judging the people by modern cultural standards, merely saying that it was still a shitty situation for the indigenous peoples regardless of differing social values and what was "fair for its time", as well as acknowledging that our ancestors' actions had negative consequences that we still see today. Only judged by the stanards of today. By the generally accepted standards of rennaisance Europe, the various indiginous peoples who found themselves subject to colonial powers had their situation improved beyond measure. What you see as a negative consequence, people of the time sincerely percieved as either positive consequences, or a negative that was countered by the massive positives in other areas. Now, its all well and good to be critical of such a mindset with the benefit of hindsight, but in doing so, it is important to remember how much of a benefit hindsight gives us. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 30, 2011 3:54:17 GMT -5
I'm afraid there I have to disagree with you. Judging past cultures by modern standards is simply wrong. If you're making a purely moral judgement (or anything entirely subjective for that matter), modern standards are as good as any other. *snort* That IS tongue in cheek, right? |
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