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Post by N. De Plume on Sept 26, 2011 17:10:39 GMT -5
So, I grew up Catholic. I still attend mass with my family. As a result, I am having a fun time learning about a new development: In the next few months, there will be a new translation of the Roman Missal used in mass—the document from which all our little call and response prayers are taken. We got a preview of the translation with a small card featuring the translation of some of the more prominent sections. Things that stood out to me: - The response to “The Lord be with you” is changed from “And also with you” to “And with your spirit.” I just find this phrase to be weird and lacking in a true sense of reciprocity.
- According to the Nicene Creed, Catholics no longer believe that Jesus was “One with the Father,” but “Consubstantial with the Father.” This just strikes me as putting in a big word for the hell of it, possibly as an attempt to get a bit more Latin into the mass.
- Also from the Nicene Creed, Catholics no longer simply “believe in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come” but they actually look forward to it. This struck me as a bit close to the “death cult” criticism we throw at Rapture Ready.
- One last Nicene thing: Jesus can’t just be born of the Virgin Mary, but must be incarnate of her instead.
- The Penitential Rite was already enough to spawn all the jokes about Catholics being obsessed with guilt, as it is is a prayer that goes on and on about how we are all sinners in need of forgiveness. It seems that there wasn’t quite emphasizing that point, because now we have not just sinned, but we have greatly sinned. And we have not just sinned through our own fault, but through “our own fault, our own fault, through our most grievous fault.” Yeah, really trying to turn that Guilt thing up to eleven.
Anyway, the little preview card we got can be viewed here: www.andwithyourspirit.com/view-card/Yeah, I’m not really impressed.
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Post by MaybeNever on Sept 26, 2011 17:21:19 GMT -5
According to the Nicene Creed, Catholics no longer believe that Jesus was “One with the Father,” but “Consubstantial with the Father.” This just strikes me as putting in a big word for the hell of it, possibly as an attempt to get a bit more Latin into the mass. Possibly, but this kind of thing has an ancient history in the Church. Exceedingly trivial quibbles broke the western and eastern churches repeatedly until the final break in the 11th century over a passage in the Nicene Creed. The phrase in question? That the holy spirit proceeded from the father and the son, rather than from the father alone. One compromise, "from the father through the son," was rejected.
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Post by Shano on Sept 26, 2011 20:42:24 GMT -5
According to the Nicene Creed, Catholics no longer believe that Jesus was “One with the Father,” but “Consubstantial with the Father.” This just strikes me as putting in a big word for the hell of it, possibly as an attempt to get a bit more Latin into the mass. Possibly, but this kind of thing has an ancient history in the Church. Exceedingly trivial quibbles broke the western and eastern churches repeatedly until the final break in the 11th century over a passage in the Nicene Creed. The phrase in question? That the holy spirit proceeded from the father and the son, rather than from the father alone. One compromise, "from the father through the son," was rejected. The great schism was not really about the filioque clause. There are a number of other significantly more divisive issues than this one. The wikipedia article is very comprehensive. Filioque can be easily overcome, but the issues of theoria vs scholasticism and the whole bunch of purgatory/hell stuff are going to be very hard to reconcile.
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Post by Smurfette Principle on Sept 27, 2011 0:28:43 GMT -5
Da fuck? OK, the last one I can sort of understand, because it's a direct translation of "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa," but it's a little redundant. Honestly, I like the "the lord be with you - and also with you" thing, because it happens a lot in Mass and it's a bit like saying, "Have a good day! - Thanks, you too!" It's just a nice way of saying it back. Also, how does that make sense? "The Lord be with you." "And with your spirit! I don't know why I'm specifying spirit instead of you as a whole, but whatever." Incarnate: it doesn't mean what they think it means. Namely, incarnate means "to be represented in flesh, or in the ultimate or most extreme form." For example, to call someone the devil incarnate (if taken literally) means that you're saying that the devil (a metaphysical being) has taken human shape in the form of this person. The way they're using it doesn't make any sense grammatically, and is actually redundant: "he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man" translates to "he was born of the Virgin Mary and was God in the flesh." This just means "He was God in the flesh because of Mary, and was also God in the flesh." The Nicene Creed thing, I don't know what your church uses, but we've always said this version, where it says "we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come, amen." It does make the death cult thing a bit more obvious, though. The consubstantial thing is stupid, we've always said "one in being with the Father," which means exactly the same thing in a way people can understand without consulting a dictionary. Also, reading the card: what the hell is going on with the Nicene Creed using "I" instead of "we"? And why are they adding stuff like "adored" or "save us, Savior of the World" or whatever? What's the point? This is an unnecessary addition. When they had the changes for Vatican II, it had a purpose: namely, to make the Mass more accessible to those who don't speak Latin, and to make sure people actually knew what they were saying rather than repeating random syllables. This is just stupid.
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Post by N. De Plume on Sept 27, 2011 6:54:54 GMT -5
The Nicene Creed thing, I don't know what your church uses, but we've always said this version, where it says "we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come, amen." It does make the death cult thing a bit more obvious, though. Yeah, you know what? I may have gotten that confused there. I was taught the Apostle’s Creeed as a child, but had to more or less figure out the Nicene Creed as I went along. And they are both to the point where I gotta say ‘em on auto-pilot, because I will mess them up if I try thinking too hard. But yeah, “looking to” versus “looking forward to” was sufficient to trigger a note of significance.
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Post by lighthorseman on Sept 27, 2011 6:56:06 GMT -5
I've encountered the new versions, and yes, it sounds wrong in my ears too.
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Post by Smurfette Principle on Sept 27, 2011 7:25:39 GMT -5
Slightly-autistic!Smurfette wants everything to be exactly how it always has without changing because it's WRONG, damn it, WRONG!
Intellectual!Smurfette understands that the current version has only been in use for about 23 years, and they change it all the time.
Grammar nerd!Smurfette things that the new way is stupid because INCARNATE IS REDUNDANT.
Feminist!Smurfette just noticed that they're making the Holy Spirit a "who" instead of a "him," and DOES NOT RECOGNIZE YOUR FEEBLE ATTEMPTS AT REWRITING SEXIST HISTORY BY MAKING THE HOLY SPIRIT ANDROGYNOUS.
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Post by lighthorseman on Sept 27, 2011 7:38:30 GMT -5
Slightly-autistic!Smurfette wants everything to be exactly how it always has without changing because it's WRONG, damn it, WRONG! Slightly autistic Smurfette might have more in common with ridiculously pedantic LightHorseman than she may otherwise care to admit.
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Post by junastarrider on Sept 27, 2011 10:05:40 GMT -5
Ah, the Nicene Creed, brings back memories. Always got it mixed up with the Apostle's Creed, which has slightly different wording. Not to mention 'Ye Olde Englishe' version the Book of Common Prayer had. Got rather confusing when I had to recite it.
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Post by starseeker on Sept 27, 2011 10:09:22 GMT -5
Think they've already changed it at my local Catholic Church. I am going to get so caught out at Christmas.
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Post by N. De Plume on Sept 27, 2011 10:28:11 GMT -5
Think they've already changed it at my local Catholic Church. I am going to get so caught out at Christmas. I don’t think the official change-over happens until November. But those pew cards are available so congregations can start practicing.
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Post by brendanrizzo on Sept 27, 2011 12:20:15 GMT -5
I actually have heard of this from my father. It struck both him and me as the Church pandering to the traditionalists because well, they always do that. It also annoys me greatly that they're insisting that only direct word-for-word translations are valid now. Comprehension be damned, we have to use the Latin loanwords just because that's what are used in Latin. It's like they have no idea of how translation really works. Since I'm interested in languages, that pisses me off, just like the arguments of weeaboos that Japanese has "subtle nuance" that cannot be conveyed in English without keeping gratuitous Japanese words in. At least now we know it isn't only Japanophiles who do that.
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Post by MaybeNever on Sept 27, 2011 15:03:44 GMT -5
Possibly, but this kind of thing has an ancient history in the Church. Exceedingly trivial quibbles broke the western and eastern churches repeatedly until the final break in the 11th century over a passage in the Nicene Creed. The phrase in question? That the holy spirit proceeded from the father and the son, rather than from the father alone. One compromise, "from the father through the son," was rejected. The great schism was not really about the filioque clause. There are a number of other significantly more divisive issues than this one. The wikipedia article is very comprehensive. Filioque can be easily overcome, but the issues of theoria vs scholasticism and the whole bunch of purgatory/hell stuff are going to be very hard to reconcile. Okay, that's true, there were other, bigger matters at hand. But I argue that the filioque could not easily be overcome because it reflected a key distinction on the relationship of the father and the son. Resolution would have required some dogmatic flexibility which, of course, was not going to have a majority acceptance on either side.
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Post by Old Viking on Sept 27, 2011 15:05:48 GMT -5
Razzle-dazzle 'em.
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Post by Wykked Wytch on Sept 27, 2011 16:43:40 GMT -5
My grandmother, who grew up in an Italian community and has been Roman Catholic her whole life, says that Church kind of sucks now because they recite the prayers in English instead of Latin. Everything sounds cooler in Latin, apparently.
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