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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 2, 2011 3:06:06 GMT -5
Zachski, that basically IS westernization. No, no it isn't. Westernizing is imposing western ideals and culture on non-western cultures. Things like imposing our systems of government on other countries, for instance, or destroying culture to replace it with our own. What I described is commonly known as "fixing issues." Stuff that isn't restricted to eastern or western countries.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 2, 2011 5:08:49 GMT -5
Zachski, that basically IS westernization. No, no it isn't. Westernizing is imposing western ideals and culture on non-western cultures. Things like imposing our systems of government on other countries, for instance, or destroying culture to replace it with our own. What I described is commonly known as "fixing issues." Stuff that isn't restricted to eastern or western countries. Yes. It is. Secular law is one of the defining characteristics of western culture. Probably civil rights, too. And your definition of westernization is wrong. It involves any situation where a non-western country takes western characteristics. It is not necessary that it is forced or a complete replacement.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 2, 2011 7:39:48 GMT -5
Yes. It is. Secular law is one of the defining characteristics of western culture. Probably civil rights, too. EDIT: Sorry for the multiple edits. My thoughts only get into order after I've said something. The funny thing is, is that you don't see the sheer arrogance of that statement. Oh, not your arrogance. Rather, the arrogance of the western nations, in particular the USA. "Westernize" is associated with "correctness, equal rights, civil rights", whereas everything that's not western, by implication, ends up being "backwards, not equal rights" It implies that one set of cultures has it all right while all other cultures are wrong or backwards. The USA has a history of violently assaulting other cultures and then inserting their culture or government in place of their original one. Afghanistan (if I've got my Middle Eastern countries right, which I probably don't), Japan to an extent, and hell, America itself. So much culture gets lost because of us.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 2, 2011 8:05:53 GMT -5
I'd point out that your defense rests on the culture being inherently worth keeping, which isn't always true. Japan considered the Emperor a God until it was forced to westernize. Before that, well, it really wasn't going that well for them.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Oct 2, 2011 10:40:27 GMT -5
Japan wasn't forced to do anything really beyond demilitarise and reduce their monarch to a figurehead (more so). They'd already westernised long before then of their own accord, though prompted by America demanding trade rights (which is why they got so powerful in the first place). By the time America got to them, their government was already a constitutional monarchy pretty much copy-pasted from the British system and all that was needed was to add a cap on the size of the military to the constitution and remove all of the emperor's remaining political power.
As for Secularism, Lithp is correct in that it is largely a western ideal simply because not only was it first conceived of and adopted in western countries, it also spread to non-western countries usually by force or cultural osmosis, never was is it ever thought of and implemented in non-western society without any western influence. That's not patriotic dick waving, that's simply a fact. The same largely applies to ideals like free speech, equal rights and democracy.
Furthermore, you may find it "arrogant" or somehow hurt your sensibilities to say cultures based more on a rigid class system, integration of religious and civil authority and authoritarianism are less advanced than or inferior to their more liberal counterparts, however, that's simply the logical conclusion of saying that secularism is better than a single religious and civil authority, or equality is better than a caste system.
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Post by brendanrizzo on Oct 2, 2011 13:52:27 GMT -5
Holy shit, people agree with me. And they agree with me about some cultures just being better than others. IT'S A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!
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Post by SimSim on Oct 2, 2011 14:01:54 GMT -5
Just because they agree with you doesn't make the viewpoint correct. No culture is better than another, there are both positive and negative aspects of all cultures.
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Post by Vene on Oct 2, 2011 14:28:40 GMT -5
Just because they agree with you doesn't make the viewpoint correct. No culture is better than another, there are both positive and negative aspects of all cultures. Nonsense, this is the best culture.
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Post by SimSim on Oct 2, 2011 14:29:36 GMT -5
I do have to admit that is a pretty awesome culture.
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Post by brendanrizzo on Oct 2, 2011 18:51:59 GMT -5
That is awesome, Vene.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 2, 2011 23:15:38 GMT -5
Just because they agree with you doesn't make the viewpoint correct. No culture is better than another, there are both positive and negative aspects of all cultures. Nonsense, this is the best culture. My eyes just came.
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Post by lighthorseman on Oct 2, 2011 23:24:07 GMT -5
Zachski, that basically IS westernization. No, no it isn't. Westernizing is imposing western ideals and culture on non-western cultures. Things like imposing our systems of government on other countries, for instance, or destroying culture to replace it with our own. What I described is commonly known as "fixing issues." Stuff that isn't restricted to eastern or western countries. How do you see removing that culture's deep (fanatical?) respect for their prophet and replacing it with the more tolerant (and Western?) ideal of free speech as, well... NOT imposing Western ideals on a non Western culture. You think persecuting young women for blasphemy as a bad thing, because it doesn't occur in your culture. Presumably, in their culture they think it is right and just. Don't presume that just because you are used to a certain way of doing things that your ideals are some sort of pan cultural zenith that everyone else should aspire to. At least, not in the same breath that you decry cultural imperialism.
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Post by lighthorseman on Oct 2, 2011 23:31:07 GMT -5
I'd point out that your defense rests on the culture being inherently worth keeping, which isn't always true. Japan considered the Emperor a God until it was forced to westernize. Before that, well, it really wasn't going that well for them. Pointof order, they STILL consider the Emperor a god.
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Post by canadian mojo on Oct 2, 2011 23:41:58 GMT -5
My culture doesn't subjugate people for lacking a penis and it doesn't slaughter people for having the wrong imaginary friend. Note that I am a Canadian, we tend to actually hold the belief that all humans deserve equal rights a little bit more sincerely than my neighbors to the south.*
Yeah, I would call my culture superior and encourage the world to adopt it.
*No, we're not perfect, and I don't pretend we are.
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Post by lighthorseman on Oct 3, 2011 0:18:09 GMT -5
all humans deserve equal rights Yeah, I would call my culture superior Mhmmm.
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