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Post by RavynousHunter on Oct 3, 2011 3:49:07 GMT -5
Honestly, there's a lot of bullshit in a lot of cultures...western, eastern, and every place in between.
HOWEVER, killing is generally considered a bad thing by pretty much fucking everyone with two brain cells to rub together, except in certain extenuating circumstances, such as self-defense. Their right to religious freedom only extends as far as another's right to fucking LIFE begins.
I can't believe we're debating about "murder is murder" being fucking subjective.
Personally, I say we declare Pakistan officially Shit (TM), and offer paid emigration services for anyone and everyone who wants to leave that shithole. The government doesn't like it? They can declare war, and we'll grind them into bloody stains. It leaves the choice to stay or leave up to the people, and it leaves the choice of whether or not their leaders like it, and their reactions, up to them. We'll see how much Pakistan values its theocracy when their leaders lead a country with no people.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 3, 2011 3:51:13 GMT -5
Art, the thing is, Western societies have a long history of fucking up other cultures in the name of bringing them Western Civilization. This has led to all sorts of problems, from the introduction of Nile Perch to Lake Victoria to genocide in Rwanda. Now, we've improved quite a bit. But still, rather than look for wholesale Westernization, let's just focus on the obvious problems and fix those. Leave aspects of the culture that seem to work. As well, complete rejection of their culture is likely to lead to them rejecting all Western ideas, including those we would like them to adopt. This is what I am referring to and why I have a problem with the term "Westernize". Because why use "Westernize" when there are many better words to use that don't carry arrogance to them? It's sort of the country equivalent of saying "Caucasianized" to refer to racial minorities becoming successful and not being stuck in the ghetto. My point is, do away with what harms people, and leave what doesn't harm people. That being said, don't force it, either. For example, how would Americans feel if, say... *rolls a 1d20* ...New Zealand invaded us. And imposed their culture and government on us. Without actually giving us a chance to decide on it. Adding things like Free Healthcare, Gay Marriage/Civil Unions for all, but also completely legalizing bestiality (not saying that they would, but I may as well play with stereotypes for the sake of it), changing our culture, completely revamping our legal system, etc. etc. etc.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Oct 3, 2011 3:53:27 GMT -5
Don't need to worry about the bestiality for the Deep South. That's already legal.
Honestly, I don't know if that's true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could fuck your prize hog, but not your same-sex partner.
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Post by canadian mojo on Oct 3, 2011 4:00:13 GMT -5
Opinions are opinions. Facts are facts. Killing someone without a legitimate reason serves no purpose. Killing someone for being the victim of a crime is not a legitimate reason to any sane person. In your SUBJECTIVE opinion. Okay, rationalize it for us.
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Post by lighthorseman on Oct 3, 2011 5:28:08 GMT -5
In your SUBJECTIVE opinion. Okay, rationalize it for us. Obviously, n some ultures, they see that there is more value to be gained from killing someone who's honour is tainted than is to be gained from that person continuing to live. I DO NOT agree with this, my point, however, is that their opinions about what is morally important are just as valid as ours, and that if we had been brought up there, we would believe just as firmly in honour killings, and heap scorn and derision on Westerners with their promiscuous women who bring shame onto their families. Now... I have been to war on behalf of my culture, so don't for a moment think that I am not prepared to fight and kill to protect it. Thats how "pro West" I am. That said, I recognise there is nothing "objectively" superior about Western culture. We like it because we live in it and were brought up in it. Any belief that it is inherently "better" than any others is pretty much the same as the old fable about fish having no word for water.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 3, 2011 8:35:05 GMT -5
^ Hm..
Morality is subjective... though there are some things that I believe are not subjective. Such as killing people.
Namely because humanity strives to create societies, and killing deconstructs societies, and thus it's not in our best interest.
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Post by brendanrizzo on Oct 3, 2011 11:19:03 GMT -5
For example, how would Americans feel if, say... *rolls a 1d20* ...New Zealand invaded us. And imposed their culture and government on us. Without actually giving us a chance to decide on it. Adding things like Free Healthcare, Gay Marriage/Civil Unions for all, but also completely legalizing bestiality (not saying that they would, but I may as well play with stereotypes for the sake of it), changing our culture, completely revamping our legal system, etc. etc. etc. Well Zachski, I happen to be a Kiwiphile, so I wouldn't mind. (Bestiality isn't actually legal there, is it? I think that's a little TOO stereotypical...) But it's truly amazing how big of an argument there got to be on this thread over the use of a single word. There's also no reason to conflate this with racism, because non-Westerners who assimilate into Western society (and vice-versa, but you hardly hear of that) do as well as anyone else. It's simply an objective fact that the only people to enter the modern world without Western influence were the Westerners themselves, and I think that's just because they got lucky, and had history gone a little differently Europe could still be a backward pseudo-medieval society today. (If you wanna know, I think the Native Americans could have modernized by themselves if they had had the resources and immunity to disease, and managed to avoid getting conquered, but that didn't happen), but as for places like East Asia (which did modernize, don't forget)... they never would have done it if left to themselves, because their culture originally believed that Status Quo Is Literally God. (At least, that's part of Confucianism.) Of course, East Asia was never colonized, which is why it has done well for itself. Imperialism is clearly wrong as it involves oppression, but cultural diffusion is fine.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 3, 2011 18:28:49 GMT -5
I'd point out that your defense rests on the culture being inherently worth keeping, which isn't always true. Japan considered the Emperor a God until it was forced to westernize. Before that, well, it really wasn't going that well for them. Pointof order, they STILL consider the Emperor a god. Considering the fact that he's largely a figurehead, every textbook ever says they were forced to renounce this, & the largely flippant attitude towards royalty in general in Japanese media, I'm gonna have to ask you to cite that shit.
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