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Post by RavynousHunter on Aug 14, 2009 0:58:57 GMT -5
A reasonable person in such an unreasonable world. Its a minority you can feel good about being a part of.
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Post by yojetak on Aug 14, 2009 1:24:24 GMT -5
Of course not. Criticism is essential to a lively debate. What I meant is that if I said "a" and you said "b", I just won't take part of that conversation if it boils down to a steady stream of 4 letter words and insults. I don't mind if you curse, I know I still do from time to time, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying. But yeah, disagreeing and debating the issue/question at hand isn't a problem. Fabulous. Was just making sure as some people from RR don't understand the concept that critcism=/=persecution. It's refreshing to see not every person who posts there is like that.
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Post by twinters on Aug 14, 2009 1:40:30 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding elitist (and I'm not, just why my behavior may be different than others) is that I consider myself educated and have moved beyond strictly a "devotional" view of the Bible (I have a Masters in Divinity - NT Studies, working on a 2nd Masters of Art for Christian History and will start my doctorate program in the spring). The Bible is certainly a devotional tool for myself and while I'm firm in my stance that the English language Bible is far from "perfect", it's enough that I can read into God's plan. Thankfully I once read Greek and a little Hebrew so I can turn off the devotional knob and read into the semi-original language and intent, free of the dogmatic views of later interpretations.
One thing that has greatly discouraged me about many of my fellow (an oxymoron since I would be considered heterodox?) Evangelicals and conservatives is that my education seems to work against me in their eyes, that it somehow liberalizes me. I have rarely accepted what I've heard from the pulpit on Sundays as 100% truth, even when I was 12 or 13 years old. Christian History fascinates me and in truth, all history is amazing but since Christianity is dear to me, the evolution of the faith and institution is quite interesting.
i have no doubt that a RR lurker / mod will read this and report it but I wouldn't hide it over there or on CARM or Christian Forums if asked - I read the "opposition". I read Ehrman (I've met him three times and attended 5 lectures by him), I read Robert Price, I read Bruce Metzger and so on. I even admit to have read Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris. I find them more palatable than say Joel Osteen or Rick Warren because the latter are distorting Pauline Christianity. To be honest, a lot of "Christian" authors, such as Driscoll and Bell and their ilk) do more damage to the faith than the neo-Atheist camp ever could. At least one knows the position of the anti-theist camp going in.
Regardless, I think that many Christians are either too afraid to hear the truth of history or that their faith couldn't stand up to the challenge. Mine did and it's stronger for it but it certainly wasn't always easy, especially when looking into the other flavors of Christianity in the 1st - 3rd centuries. Are all of my individual views 100% orthodox? No. Do I consider myself a conservative Evangelical Christian? Yes. I even attend a Calvary Chapel, which proves nothing other than my particular world view.
But no, I'm not offended by criticism. Long way of saying that eh?
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Post by yojetak on Aug 14, 2009 2:30:21 GMT -5
It's so sad that education is demonized by a large portion of the US. Sigh.
Anyways. I agree with you 100 percent on the Christians doing more damage to the faith than any atheist. It was actually other Christians that first made me question my faith and that intellectual struggle eventually led to me completely renouncing it. I didn't even know of any other person who thought as I did at the time.
RR and Carm work in the same way; some of those on the fence are completely turned off to Christianity by reading their forums.
I remember reading a thread in their Apologetics forum called "Your Best Witness." It was one agnostic's attempt to say basically that actions speak louder than words and being loving is a better witness than condemning strangers. I agree with the message and believe it is best summed up by the quote from Gandhi: "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
The agnostic in the thread was immediately told that he shouldn't care about how they witness since it's none of his business, that he was angry with God, and that he has no morals. One poster also mentioned that it doesn't matter how they act because it's their faith that saves them.
I think the facepalm I did left a permanent mark.
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Post by antichrist on Aug 14, 2009 2:39:32 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding elitist (and I'm not, just why my behavior may be different than others) is that I consider myself educated and have moved beyond strictly a "devotional" view of the Bible Well you will find other Christians around here. I can't remember what Sandmans degree is in, but he teaches at a Christian high school. Even reading in the original languages, how do you know that the words written down are actually gods and not just written by goat herders that were trying to make sense of the world around them? Well to be blunt, I've never heard anyone complaining about right wing intellectuals. Not saying they don't exist, just never heard anyone calling for their deaths. And yeah, there's been a major backlash against intellectualism in the last 30 years or so. Somehow people seem to think that Hollywood heroes, and red neck ranchers make good leaders. Oh, it fascinates me as well, but all history is interesting. Hmmm.......... Considering that Mr Mann runs around here stroking his 'ego' at us... I see the RR banhammer in your future. Well considering the group I was with as a child couldn't stand up to a 10-year-olds questions.... yeah a lot of faith is weak. meh, it gives a clear picture of what your about.
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Post by Vene on Aug 14, 2009 3:02:31 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding elitist (and I'm not, just why my behavior may be different than others) is that I consider myself educated and have moved beyond strictly a "devotional" view of the Bible (I have a Masters in Divinity - NT Studies, working on a 2nd Masters of Art for Christian History and will start my doctorate program in the spring). We like elitist around here. Elite is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 14, 2009 3:27:54 GMT -5
I just wanted to say hello (again, not trying to double post), that I am a newer public member of RR but I have been frequenting the site for better than 2 years. But no smilies eh? That might be a deal breaker for me <laugh>. Anyways, I posted my hello in the general forum (introduce yourself) and will be happy to engage in any discussion, as long as it remains respectful, that might arise. Technically, we have a lot of the same smilies. We just don't use them all the freakin' time. Seriously, all of the times I was called "rude" there, no one ever seemed to realize it was kind of a dick move to respond to someone with a single facepalm smiley. Or 40 bajillion. ANYWAY... Hey.
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Post by Angel on Aug 14, 2009 5:08:51 GMT -5
For me, asking questions did not destroy my faith (although it certainly changed it).
Not being allowed to ask them nearly did.
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Post by twinters on Aug 14, 2009 10:16:22 GMT -5
@antichrist - I just got this the other day on RR
This was on the topic of English Biblical inerrency and the Creation/Flood story. I've been criticized on CARM for not sticking to a strictly devotional approach to the Bible since it obviously has led me to a different conclusion than others (such as Hell, the nature of Heaven as described in the Bible, the state of the soul, etc) have held on to as "fact". I'm personally neutral on the whole pre-trib/pre-wrath/pre-millennial rapture versus a post-trib approach because the argument can be made either way depending on the interpretation of certain verses / concepts. I digress....I'm a member of MI (Mensa International) and have been criticized for years by church members and others in the Christian community for participating. They feel it's elitist, Christians feel it's an atheist organization (which it's not, it's just not a group that drones on about God but most are atheist from the standpoint of the Abrahamics) and that it's anti-Christian.
Honestly, it's faith and in some cases, to believe the Bible to be literal one has to make a gigantic leap of faith. Again, I don't believe in a literal 6 day creation or a global flood. The geological evidence against the latter and the biological aspect against the former is just too strong. Does it mean a flood didn't happen? No, there are many proofs that the Black Sea and the Mediterranean suffered from rapid flooding when land dams broke. There are primitive cities buried under the Black Sea fairly well preserved. But it doesn't mean a global flood. Why? It's the interpertation of the word ץראה or erets which is translated significantly more as "land" or "country" than it is world.
But how do we know that even the originals are "God breathed" and "perfect"? We don't. It's a statement/profession of faith. I choose to believe. You don't. It's a pretty simple conversation in that regard. The reasons for my belief in God (or let's just call it a god for the moment) would take a very large page and as you can see, my replies are never short. I just have too much to say. The short of it is that many of the events in the OT and some of the soothsaying in the NT match up with what we see today, much better than Islam does, much better than many of the Eastern sects do, etc. Does that make it right? Nope. And contrary to the most hardcore of Christians, it's not always been right/perfect depending on your viewpoint.
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Post by Dr. Waldorf X on Aug 14, 2009 11:01:32 GMT -5
I like this guy.
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Post by Rime on Aug 14, 2009 11:37:05 GMT -5
* Gives a nod toward twinters *
Welcome aboard. I can't speak for everyone, but I like how you are trying to ride the ragged edge between sacred and secular. I see far too many folks over on RR and CARM worshiping a new law and trying to call it different from worshiping the old law, and the attitude seems all the same.
I certainly hope you're here for a while, because a view like yours makes for some interesting discussion. Most, but not all of the visitors from RR seem to be remarking about the sleeves on their robes while trying to educate us in the error of our ways.
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Post by dasfuchs on Aug 15, 2009 20:26:13 GMT -5
"Hmmm.......... Considering that Mr Mann runs around here stroking his 'ego' at us...
I see the RR banhammer in your future." Which would be the most fucking hypocritical, ironic thing to happen. They either need to nail him for being anti christian which involves taking from another board against their rules, or nail him for posting on another forum, which mann is guilty of atleast 15 times over
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Post by Sigmaleph on Aug 15, 2009 22:09:19 GMT -5
"Hmmm.......... Considering that Mr Mann runs around here stroking his 'ego' at us... I see the RR banhammer in your future." Which would be the most fucking hypocritical, ironic thing to happen. They either need to nail him for being anti christian which involves taking from another board against their rules, or nail him for posting on another forum, which mann is guilty of atleast 15 times over Because the rapturites are well known for always following their forum's rules. Not one instance of selective application of the rules, not at all. The above snark is not directed at anyone in particular, just felt like sarcasming
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Post by The Lazy One on Aug 15, 2009 22:10:42 GMT -5
What's up, Twinters? I'm late to the discussion, but you seem like a pretty cool guy. I hope you enjoy your time here at FSTDT.
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Post by catanon on Aug 16, 2009 1:05:23 GMT -5
We all do. It's not very often that we get a well-meaning theist who's willing to discuss these things, and such a well-educated one at that! Most people just read the bible and that's that, they don't need anything more, but this guy is hard-core! He's our very own biblical scholar! Welcome to FSTDT!
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