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Post by John E on Sept 30, 2009 14:40:53 GMT -5
Heck, breakfast is the BEST time for meat! There's bacon, ham, sausage, roast beef hash, steak (& eggs), turkey bacon...
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Post by rookie on Sept 30, 2009 14:50:56 GMT -5
It ain't breakfast unless a pig dies.
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purimpopoie
Full Member
A name once heard and never forgotten
Posts: 203
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Post by purimpopoie on Sept 30, 2009 16:46:02 GMT -5
Mmmm... Pig is the best kind of meat.
It's Sacrilicious!
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Post by Yaezakura on Sept 30, 2009 17:15:39 GMT -5
*To Lucky Charms jingle*
That's me tasty pig... it's sinfully delicious!
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Post by percybyssheshelly on Oct 3, 2009 11:47:54 GMT -5
I've been a strict vegan for approximately five years now, and I was a vegetarian 2 years prior to going vegan. My position is centered around the idea that if human rights are to be recognized,then animals have rights for the same reasons. Our moral significance lies in our commonalities as subjects of a life. If you have desires and interests, and you can suffer and experience pain, then you are entitled to liberty (however you may define it).
Animal activist's posit that It is not our right to do whatever we please to the body of an animal. They are not our property, and I cannot tolerate the unnatural and systematic slaughter that animals are subjected every second. Billions upon billions of animals are raised in barbarous conditions and then destroyed to satisfy you palate. This is selfishness and sadism.
It is a flagrant contradiction to grant a severely impaired human being personhood but deny it to a more intelligent and aware ape, or any other complex animal.
It is clear that animal rights challenges the human identity, and our supposed place in the world. Power requires responsibility, and an enlarged neocortex is no justification or excuse to rape and plunder the natural world. It's essential to all life that humanity realizes they are citizens of the Biocommunty, and that we are not it's conquerors, and that we are in part, responsible for what will happen to it in the future. It is our goal to chance the entrenched attitudes and to stop or change the powerful institutions that profit from animal and human exploitation.
What is required to abolish the hellish conditions that animals are subjected to is a seismic cultural shift. One that would replace the notion of anumals as property with the radically alternative concept that posits that animals are persons. Our species is not unique with regard to qualities such as sentience, having preferences and desires, and the ability to remember or project ideas into the future.
To reference the Great Ape project: The fundamental concept behind the Great Ape project is Personhood. The premise is essentially this: Apes are as complex as human children and if children are persons, so too are apes. Simple enough. If we can ultimately attribute personhood and fundamental rights to our closest animal relatives, it is assumed that other animals will follow. Thus it would be understood that both a necessary and sufficient condition of moral and legal rights is merely to be sentient and have elementary preferences, such as avoiding pain and remaining alive.
I do, however, want to say that if we were connected with our land base and were unable to support and live a vegan lifestyle, I would advocate hunting. I understand that Veganism is supported by the modern era and would be extremely difficult and unnecessary without it. I would never ask it of those who are truly unable to abstain from eating meat. I am not an absolutist when it comes to eating flesh. Despite being an extremely unrealistic goal, I would like to see the animal enslavement industries destroyed. I am idealist, sure, but I cannot have it any other way for myself.
"Idealist: A cynic in the making." Irving Layton
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Post by Yaezakura on Oct 3, 2009 12:45:50 GMT -5
The thing is, I don't see how you can advocate hunting. Hunting is a very uncontrollable act. You can't ensure what you hunt dies painlessly every time. With domesticated animals that you can control, you can. Yes, there are places where such processes need to be improved, but that is a complaint against specific farms, not the institution of animal farming.
Also, I love how you balk at the "unnatural and systematic slaughter" of animals, but not the unnatural and systematic process of farming plants. Or the fact that vegan diets are unnatural. You can't decry a process you dislike as unnatural while surviving by almost purely unnatural means.
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Post by lumberjackninja on Oct 3, 2009 14:08:17 GMT -5
Also, I love how you balk at the "unnatural and systematic slaughter" of animals, but not the unnatural and systematic process of farming plants. Or the fact that vegan diets are unnatural. You can't decry a process you dislike as unnatural while surviving by almost purely unnatural means. To be fair, I believe that is what the poster question meant when saying that the vegan diet is "supported by the modern era"- an admission that without the ability to move exotic vegetables thousands of miles so that a vegan/strict vegetarian can have a balanced diet, it would not be a workable scheme. Unfortunately, the idealization of primitive hunting is, well, incredibly false. Somebody previously mentioned that primitive hunting generally involved fire, spears, and cliffs- light the fire, poke them with sticks, and let them fall off a cliff to their death. Have your women waiting near the bottom to skin and butcher the animals. Move to a different area, and come back a year later to repeat the process. Other animals may be sentient, but they are not sapient; they are not nearly as aware of their world as we are, in terms of predicting what's going to happen in the long-term; if they were, one or the other of the grate apes would have discovered farming by now. Human pain is different from the pain of other animals in that there's a psychological aspect to it, as well. Think about it: you round up a bunch of cows, and put them in a single-file line through the chute to the slaughter house, and they don't know where they're going; they just know that they've been herded into a narrow space and oh, yum, free food! Things are going just dandy for them until the spike goes through their neck. Round up a bunch of humans, on the other hand, and put them in a single-file line into the slaughter house, and even before they're killed, they'll be frightened out of their minds, because even if they don't know what lies on the other end of the door, they do know that being rounded up and made incapable of fighting back is a bad thing; this perception is, of course, based upon the ability for humans to recall past memories, apply radical thoughts, and extrapolate through to future events. Few other animals share that ability, and interestingly enough none of them are likely to be found on the menu of a local restaurant.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Oct 3, 2009 14:44:19 GMT -5
It ain't breakfast unless a pig dies. (gives rookie a hug) That ... damn near brought a tear to my eye...
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Post by Sigmaleph on Oct 3, 2009 16:02:11 GMT -5
Next person to use the words "natural" or "unnatural" as if they had any moral significance gets stabbed. You have been warned.
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Post by John E on Oct 3, 2009 16:14:38 GMT -5
Computers are unnatural! everyone stop using them... NOW!
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Post by Paradox on Oct 3, 2009 16:20:01 GMT -5
Next person to use the words "natural" or "unnatural" as if they had any moral significance gets stabbed. You have been warned. Drink up Socrates, it's all natural!
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Oct 3, 2009 18:42:45 GMT -5
Next person to use the words "natural" or "unnatural" as if they had any moral significance gets stabbed. You have been warned. Drink up Socrates, it's all natural! I love you. There's a difference between "inhumane" and "unnatural"; killing one another with spears and such, for instance, can be considered natural. On the other hand, my glasses, hearing aids, medication, cell phone, computer, bed, chair, desk, etc. are all "unnatural", so fuck you.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Oct 3, 2009 19:24:08 GMT -5
Ok people, pain is merely a nervous function that lets the brain know the body is being damaged. Just because something possesses such a function does not make it somehow sacred and untouchable, nor does it validate this plethora of emotional arguments we're seeing. Besides, I've you've ever swatted a fly or mosquito (and don't try and claim you haven't at least tried), you've essentially killed something that ZOMG, FEELS PAIN!!11! Just becase it was a inconvenience you and thus your whole argument fails.
If anyone needs me, I'll just be eating a hunk of dead chicken flesh wrapped in breadcrumbs. Top of the food chain and fucking proud, REPRESENT!
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Post by katz on Oct 3, 2009 20:10:12 GMT -5
The thing is, I don't see how you can advocate hunting. Hunting is a very uncontrollable act. You can't ensure what you hunt dies painlessly every time. With domesticated animals that you can control, you can. Yes, there are places where such processes need to be improved, but that is a complaint against specific farms, not the institution of animal farming. Actually, I see hunting as far more humane than livestock. I mean, wouldn't you rather live free in a woods your whole life before dying than cooped up in a farm? That and if humans didn't hunt, populations would get pretty out of control pretty quickly. All the hunters I know are concerned with quick kills.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Oct 3, 2009 20:10:53 GMT -5
REPRESENT YO SET!
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