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Post by tygerarmy on Apr 5, 2010 22:43:59 GMT -5
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 5, 2010 22:55:29 GMT -5
I once read that one post-war plan that was forwarded during the Civil War was to cut huge chunks off of Virginia and annex them to West Virginia, which was named Kanawha at the time. The number of states would have remained the same, but the lines certainly would have been very different.
I love this kind of alternate map stuff though. It's fun to play around with.
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Post by Damen on Apr 6, 2010 5:09:46 GMT -5
There's a lake here that lays across the Oklahoma/Texas border. It's name?
Lake Texoma.
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Post by skyfire on Apr 6, 2010 6:35:01 GMT -5
What he's not telling people about Deseret is that outside of lone outposts like Fort Bridger, the only permanent residents of the region before Young's first band of settlers got there were the local Native American bands.
In fact, Mexico had a claim on the land at the time Young & co. arrived, but the area was so seemingly desolate that they never bothered to enforce it.
It wasn't until well after the Mormon settlers began to expand all over the region that half the place even became moderately hospitable to Anglo settlement, and so as you can imagine Young felt that the state should have claim on every last single place that the different batches of settlers helped put together. In fact, Las Vegas actually started out as a Mormon colony; it was a sleepy little town until organized crime moved in during the first half of the 1900s.
One of my ancestors actually helped establish 4 - 6 towns in different parts of Utah (the number depends upon whether or not you want to count the settlements that ended up being abandoned) because he was a skilled surveyor and laborer.
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Post by Bezron on Apr 6, 2010 8:52:52 GMT -5
Well, thank goodness for the Mormons and their attempts to escape the US then!
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Post by skyfire on Apr 6, 2010 10:29:18 GMT -5
Well, thank goodness for the Mormons and their attempts to escape the US then! If it wasn't for the Mormon settlers in Utah and the Mormon Battalion quite literally carving a path through the southwest US, the general westward movement that took place during the latter half of the 1800s might not have been possible. The trail in the southwest gave settlers a straight shot all the way to California, and the settlements in Utah and Nevada gave settlers resupply points and navigational assistance. In fact, among the laborers at Sutter's Mill were members of the Battalion who had taken up mining after the unit had been disbanded; by Sutter himself, they were his best employees and the last to leave him after gold was discovered. Not only that, but a large part of the reason why the federal government decided to have the Trans-Continental Railroad run where, when, and how it did was because of a desire to dilute the Mormon populace in Utah via "outside" exposure. ...and yet, history books generally only give the church all of three or four paragraphs. Total.
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Post by Tiger on Apr 6, 2010 10:31:07 GMT -5
What he's not telling people about Deseret is that outside of lone outposts like Fort Bridger, the only permanent residents of the region before Young's first band of settlers got there were the local Native American bands. Because everyone knows that non-whites don't count.
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Post by skyfire on Apr 6, 2010 10:43:00 GMT -5
What he's not telling people about Deseret is that outside of lone outposts like Fort Bridger, the only permanent residents of the region before Young's first band of settlers got there were the local Native American bands. Because everyone knows that non-whites don't count. The Mormon settlers were actually on relatively good terms with the local Native bands, such that Young was able to secure a number of peace treaties. Young actually cracked down on violence against Native Americans (even going so far as to denounce it from the pulpit on at least two occasions), and in return many of the Native bands left the settlers alone. Those few bands that did remain hostile were slowly converted towards pacifism, both by the kindness of the church members and by the realization that if push came to shove the membership would defend itself. OTOH, the rest of the United States was in full-blown "Manifest Destiny" mode. They felt that the nation owned everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and freely attempted to roll over anyone and everyone who got in their way. A large part of the reason why the Eastern US took such an interest in Utah during the 1850s was because - holy crap! - the Mormon settlers actually succeeded in turning much of the state into a physical paradise and in doing so discovered metal deposits in the mountains; the moment that Young was out of power as the territorial governor, Easterners were up mining anywhere and everywhere they could stake a claim. In fact, it got so bad that the Mormon settlers were often the only whites that some Native bands would converse with; everyone else was treated as a potential enemy because of how badly the folks from the Eastern US treated them.
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Post by the sandman on Apr 6, 2010 13:41:01 GMT -5
Did I just see Sky claim credit for the LDS church on the Westward Expansion in the 19th century? Really? In his mind all things DO revolve around the Mormons, don't they?
And Sky? You REALLY have to get off the whole "The-Mormon-Church-Can-Do-No-Wrong" schtick. It's getting real old. You also need to let go of your Mormon-centric version of history. You're like the black guy who sits in the back of his history class in full African garb loudly declaring that the New World was really discovered by a Gambian named Umbuto Kinanate using a dugout canoe in 1106 AD.
Face it Sky, the Mormon church, while it has played a role in the history of the United States, that role has been, at best, a minor one. One without widespread impact on the nation as a whole, and one with little to no impact on world history. There's no shame in that; it is not necessary to be influential. But let's face it, the Boy Scouts have had a bigger impact on American culture and history than the Mormon church.
(Prepares for shitstorm of bogus/revisionist/highly dubious/unsupported "facts" from Sky about how the Mormon church has been a major player in many aspects of American culture and history.)
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Post by Bezron on Apr 6, 2010 13:42:05 GMT -5
I have to apologize for setting him up like I did. However, it was worth the lulz
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Post by Thejebusfire on Apr 6, 2010 14:51:32 GMT -5
There's a lake here that lays across the Oklahoma/Texas border. It's name? Lake Texoma. Yes, this is what we call the south Oklahoma\north Texas region. I don't really like the name. That lake is pretty nice though.
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Post by Damen on Apr 6, 2010 15:43:47 GMT -5
YES! IT WAS THE LDS CHURCH THAT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR WESTWARD EXPANSION! THAT'S THE BIGGEST REASON PEOPLE WENT WEST!
Hunt for gold? What's that?
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Post by Magnizeal on Apr 6, 2010 16:25:49 GMT -5
One of my ancestors actually helped establish 4 - 6 towns in different parts of Utah (the number depends upon whether or not you want to count the settlements that ended up being abandoned) because he was a skilled surveyor and laborer. And I am related to Snow by blood via his second or third wife, and by marriage to both Young and Smith himself. Our ancestors don't really matter, now do they? I mean, my great-great grandpappy Lorenzo saved your whole Church. Pity, that. I'm almost ashamed.
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Post by Mira on Apr 6, 2010 17:03:48 GMT -5
One of my ancestors actually helped establish 4 - 6 towns in different parts of Utah (the number depends upon whether or not you want to count the settlements that ended up being abandoned) because he was a skilled surveyor and laborer. And I am related to Snow by blood via his second or third wife, and by marriage to both Young and Smith himself. Our ancestors don't really matter, now do they? I mean, my great-great grandpappy Lorenzo saved your whole Church. Pity, that. I'm almost ashamed. Well, it seems polygamy runs in the family at least.
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Post by DarkfireTaimatsu on Apr 6, 2010 17:07:32 GMT -5
One of my ancestors actually helped establish 4 - 6 towns in different parts of Utah (the number depends upon whether or not you want to count the settlements that ended up being abandoned) because he was a skilled surveyor and laborer. And I am related to Snow by blood via his second or third wife, and by marriage to both Young and Smith himself. Our ancestors don't really matter, now do they? I mean, my great-great grandpappy Lorenzo saved your whole Church. Pity, that. I'm almost ashamed. Aw, before checking the link, I thought it was going to be this Snow.
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