witchofreason
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Post by witchofreason on Jun 3, 2010 12:25:53 GMT -5
Wait wait wait. I'm supposed to be depressed because my gender identity doesn't match with my physical and genetic sex? I'm a Genderqueer, and my gender will often change or fall outside of the binary. AND I find myself to be more masculine than I actually am? What?! Androgynes etc. are a slightly different matter. And it's hard to call it a "mismatch" when it changes all the time anyway IMO. I think Gender Dysphoria has a lot do to with the long term deterministic nature of it.
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witchofreason
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President and Customer of Heavy Editing, Inc.
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Post by witchofreason on Jun 3, 2010 12:28:03 GMT -5
I'm very confused that people are making it seem like transgendered or genderqueers can't be legitimately happy, that we're fooling ourselves. I was actually VERY depressed before I realized I was trying to be what other people thought I should be based on my sex (That I should act like a girl). Now I act in a way that feels natural, whether that means I act like a female or a male it depends on the situation and I'm not forcing myself into the gender role society wants to assign me. Gender roles and gender hardwiring are two different things. It's extremely difficult to discern between them unless you're a neurologist, but it's still a fact. I think it's more the typical case of there being certain ideas on this forum, as with every forum, that I'm conflicting with, or that cause misunderstanding. For example having a "gender queer" member which is actually quite rare(though so are Ts I suppose) can tip the scales out of a generality. It's called Gender Dysphoria for a reason, and is essentailly a form of depression. I don't like being talked down to as if I don't have a clue half the time when I'm more than familiar with most of this. I acknowledge the existence of "in betweeners" and have known a few in my time - but they're still obviously not what I talk about when we're talking about a consistant mismatch. Generally the "your gender can mismatch and you can still be happy!" is shit peddled by the transphobes to try and stop people transitioning, so they don't have to be "weirded out". Of course there are going to be exceptions. But in general, what I said holds true. I think people take this a little too lightly and consider themselves to have male or female brain gender when in reality it's often more to do with gender roles or more subtle neurological differences.
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Post by Lady Renae on Jun 3, 2010 12:41:30 GMT -5
Before SFW gets here, witch, I need to inform you that we don't have "a" genderqueer member. We have a plethora of them, as well as SEVERAL transgenders and transsexuals, one of whom is a moderator, as is one of the genderqueers.
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witchofreason
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Post by witchofreason on Jun 3, 2010 12:51:05 GMT -5
Well, my experience of transsexuals is that many of them are somewhat offended when people take brain gender too lightly.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Jun 3, 2010 12:54:12 GMT -5
I've studied psychology extensively. I also have studied anthropology and sociology which is all about talking about gender roles and how its played a part in our evolution into the homo sapiens sapiens that we are. Gender roles are forced on us by preconceived notions by society. There is really no such thing as 'hardwiring'. We are pushed in a certain direction by society. I can give you a million and one examples of such things, but I won't. It is bullshit for you to tell me I'm depressed and just hiding it or not recognizing the signs. I was the best student in my psychology classes. I have been to therapy plenty of times in my life for the reasons I mentioned before. I was depressed because people were pushing me in different directions, telling me I should fit the female gender role and that there was no other way of going about it. That I can't possibly fit into the male gender role at the same time, or that I can't switch between the two. That is wrong, and to be told as such is wrong of someone else. ‘With the buzz-phrase ‘hard-wiring’ comes an extraordinary insistence on locating social pressures in the brain.’ While some dimorphic traits seem to be tightly constrained by physiological heredity, so many of the ones that we point to and are most interested in — personality, aggression, strength, intellectual ability, emotional perception — are precisely in those traits that we know are most developmentally plastic and subject to training effects. That is, we know damn well in our own lives that our math ability is affected enormously by our training and practice, and yet we overlook this fact when we hear claims about the difference between girls and boys mathematical ‘potential.’ In the case of the brain, we know that even the connections between the eyes and the visual cortex are not ‘hard-wired’ but must emerge through sensory stimulation and developmental processes; how much more likely is it that our ability to empathize with each other is susceptible to all sorts of developmental pressures? (Copyright Cordelia Fine neuroanthropology.net/2008/03/28/neurosexism-size-dimorphism-and-not-so-hard-wiring/ ) Edited for grammar
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Post by Lady Renae on Jun 3, 2010 12:57:55 GMT -5
Well, my experience of transsexuals is that many of them are somewhat offended when people take brain gender too lightly. You are fairly accurate in that assessment. I was merely informing you that the ratio of cisgenders to atypicals here is a good bit smaller than most other communities on the internet, so the likelihood of any of the stereotypes, stupid mindsets, and other things you seem to be assuming before you speak really don't much of ever apply at any point of a conversation here, especially when the subject is related to the LGBTQ community.
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Post by Vene on Jun 3, 2010 17:46:16 GMT -5
It's called Gender Dysphoria for a reason, and is essentailly a form of depression. Haha, no. It's a brain-body mismatch. It can lead to depression, but it isn't depression in and of itself. We have multiple transsexuals on the forum who have transitioned or are currently undergoing transition. I don't think it's being taken lightly.
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witchofreason
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President and Customer of Heavy Editing, Inc.
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Post by witchofreason on Jun 7, 2010 0:30:33 GMT -5
The problem with cliques is that they will get one idea of what's acceptable, very often based on or two members.
I've been to various trans support places with some very strange ideas indeed(like wanting to stop people referin to transwomen as such at all, just that they were women and different women had "different needs", I don't know why this makes me so angry to this day but it does), so I'm not going to put too much stock in the unique sensitivities of one place over another.
What I said is true "In general" of transsexuals in my experience. It doesn't exclude one place being particularly biased towards the idea that they're special cases and the brain/body mismatch doesn't tend towards depression.
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witchofreason
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Post by witchofreason on Jun 7, 2010 0:35:26 GMT -5
I've studied psychology extensively. I also have studied anthropology and sociology which is all about talking about gender roles and how its played a part in our evolution into the homo sapiens sapiens that we are. Gender roles are forced on us by preconceived notions by society. There is really no such thing as 'hardwiring'. We are pushed in a certain direction by society. I can give you a million and one examples of such things, but I won't. It is bullshit for you to tell me I'm depressed and just hiding it or not recognizing the signs. I was the best student in my psychology classes. I have been to therapy plenty of times in my life for the reasons I mentioned before. I was depressed because people were pushing me in different directions, telling me I should fit the female gender role and that there was no other way of going about it. That I can't possibly fit into the male gender role at the same time, or that I can't switch between the two. That is wrong, and to be told as such is wrong of someone else. ‘With the buzz-phrase ‘hard-wiring’ comes an extraordinary insistence on locating social pressures in the brain.’ While some dimorphic traits seem to be tightly constrained by physiological heredity, so many of the ones that we point to and are most interested in — personality, aggression, strength, intellectual ability, emotional perception — are precisely in those traits that we know are most developmentally plastic and subject to training effects. That is, we know damn well in our own lives that our math ability is affected enormously by our training and practice, and yet we overlook this fact when we hear claims about the difference between girls and boys mathematical ‘potential.’ In the case of the brain, we know that even the connections between the eyes and the visual cortex are not ‘hard-wired’ but must emerge through sensory stimulation and developmental processes; how much more likely is it that our ability to empathize with each other is susceptible to all sorts of developmental pressures? (Copyright Cordelia Fine neuroanthropology.net/2008/03/28/neurosexism-size-dimorphism-and-not-so-hard-wiring/ ) Edited for grammar I see this is the root of it. It's generally a constant with transpeople that gender is hardwired, and you seem very aggressively against this idea. Obviously, this is swaying the forum's balance towards that direction. I imagine others find you too intimidating to seriously debate. It does occur to me that the article you posted is mostly an essay rather than a solid study. I've done bits of research on this in the past, so I'll see what I can drag up. I have nothing against genderqueers/androgynes. My remarks were also not directed at genderqueers so your offense is unfounded. However it seems to me that you're going to extraordinary efforts to tear down the foundation of other transgenders to justify your own existence, which is crossing a line for me. Maybe you are correct after all and gender is not hard-wired; however what you're setting out to do is pretty selfish and mean spirited. If there is no such thing as a "female brain", then why are there some differences? www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjcem.endojournals.org%2Fcgi%2Fcontent%2Ffull%2F85%2F5%2F2034&rct=j&q=limbic+nucleus&ei=PYcMTNzNMpPu0wTQwqBy&usg=AFQjCNENtt3HtX0WciaDF0BiTstSTHseAQ&sig2=AGqNe_O81zod6dyQqYBRogLike this classic for example. There are any number of examples where male and female brain structure tend to differ. It is not just down to gender roles. it is just too difficult for some people to understand both gender roles AND hardwiring have an effect.
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Post by Oriet on Jun 7, 2010 2:16:39 GMT -5
Hold on, seems someone here doesn't understand shades of grey.
There are differences in the brain between the sexes, and with transsexuals our brains match those of our target gender. However, these are many factors that are not in any fashion a binary. Thus, more than there being just male and female brains, there are brains that are a mix of both and those can't can't be classed as either. Genderqueer, androgyne, two-spirit, agender, and a host of others that don't immediately spring to mind easily fall "between" the male and female ends of the spectrum. As a transwoman I don't find such threatening, but rather encouraging, as it just strengthens the fact that gender and sex doesn't even begin to approach the binary society tries to foist on us.
This being said, there is a large difference as well between gender identity and gender roles. One is a series of inborn traits, the other is a set of learned, purely social (as opposed to physical) behaviours and expectations. (There is also gender expression, which is different from identity and role, but I'm not going to get into the particulars of that.) The two are quite different from each other, and I have seen nothing to support a causal relationship between them. All Shane was doing was pointing out that a lot traits people ascribe as identity are, in actuality, aspects of roles. Understanding these differences is vital to understanding one's self.
Take me, for instance. I'm pretty decent at math. I love weapons, armour, war vehicles, and tactics. I love strategic and hack'n'slash tabletop gaming. I keep poking at learning computer programming. I gladly eat cold pizza for breakfast, often wear military pants and boots, I'm terrible at keeping my place clean and organised, and I don't like makeup. All of these are things are generally considered aspects of a male gender role, and several are often assumed to be part of a male identity, yet I don't feel like they impinge on my most definitely female gender identity in the least, because I can't give half a crap about stereotypical gender roles. Oh, it did take me a while to get gender identity and role sorted out, but I can now happily live my life now that I've got it sorted out.
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Post by Bluefinger on Jun 7, 2010 2:56:58 GMT -5
Okay, I'm stepping into this because I really can't help myself. This is just too good to miss out on. I see this is the root of it. It's generally a constant with transpeople that gender is hardwired, and you seem very aggressively against this idea. Obviously, this is swaying the forum's balance towards that direction. I imagine others find you too intimidating to seriously debate. Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. If you want to actually want to be taken seriously in a debate, then try not to project too much onto the person you are debating with. Also, you've pretty much missed the point of Shane's post at the same time. Please cut the snide attitude, otherwise people will just not take you seriously. It does occur to me that the article you posted is mostly an essay rather than a solid study. I've done bits of research on this in the past, so I'll see what I can drag up. I have nothing against genderqueers/androgynes. My remarks were also not directed at genderqueers so your offense is unfounded. However it seems to me that you're going to extraordinary efforts to tear down the foundation of other transgenders to justify your own existence, which is crossing a line for me. Maybe you are correct after all and gender is not hard-wired; however what you're setting out to do is pretty selfish and mean spirited. Oh no! She's saying something that doesn't agree with me! What am I going to do? D: So mean! Also, you miss the point by a mile and a half. What Shane is trying to state is the fact that Gender Roles exist is not a product of 'hard-wiring', but that of the society the individual resides in. Gender roles do vary a fair bit between different cultures, and we see that most individuals fit in to the general set of roles defined by the society they have been brought up in. This indicates a high degree of conditioning that upbringing can have on the perception and expression of gender. Next, let's take into account Oriet's contribution. We have a situation where there are particular traits that are inborn and others that are conditioned. Even with cisgender folk, they don't always fall into the standard gender role that society enforces, and in that regard, it depends more on one's personality and upbringing. But, even with the variation of gender roles between people, they still have defined traits that allow them to recognise their gender. The trick is finding out which traits are conditioned and which aren't. The end result is something that hardly looks like a binary system, or even a greyscale one. I don't really think anyone is really arguing that there is no inborn trait effect with regards to transgenderism. You are barking up the wrong tree here.
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witchofreason
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Post by witchofreason on Jun 7, 2010 9:38:46 GMT -5
Wow you sound like such a prick. I wasn't aware I stumbled into Encyclopedia Dramatica.
But being a patronising little shit is acceptable? Come on.
Both of you are ignoring that Shane For Wax flat out said that there is no such thing as hard-wiring, and it's all gender roles.
This. Shane said, outright, there is no such thing as hardwiring. Not "What Shane's REALLY trying to say", this is what Shane actually said. I'm sure Shane will try to backpeddle to a more moderate and acceptable viewpoint; though if not the results could be amusing(if people don't just continue to outright ignore what Shane is actually saying).
But of course, social circles stick up for their buddies even when they're spouting shit, they just block it out. This argument is fucking stupid anyway, since I was never denying the case of genderqueers. However it doesn't change the fact that in my experience, brain and body mismatch does lead to misery, otherwise a lot of transsexuals wouldn't bother to go through with it. I said several times there are, as always, exceptional cases, but that some people take the idea of brain gender too lightly when it comes up, especially in the media. And I distinguished between gener roles and hardwired gender attributes, so I'm unsure what Oriet is upset about. People are getting uppity over nothing.
I however am getting quite uppity over Shane's assertion that there is no such thing as "hardwiring", when the majority of research seems to indicate there is.
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Post by Bluefinger on Jun 7, 2010 10:41:51 GMT -5
Wow you sound like such a prick. I wasn't aware I stumbled into Encyclopedia Dramatica. Thanks, but I don't have to play nice if I know who I am dealing with is also a prick. ^-^ But being a patronising little shit is acceptable? Come on. I can do this all day if you want, but I was trying to get across in no less clearer terms that acting like a dick will only get you nowhere if you are trying to advance a particular argument or point. Both of you are ignoring that Shane For Wax flat out said that there is no such thing as hard-wiring, and it's all gender roles. This. Shane said, outright, there is no such thing as hardwiring. Not "What Shane's REALLY trying to say", this is what Shane actually said. I'm sure Shane will try to backpeddle to a more moderate and acceptable viewpoint; though if not the results could be amusing(if people don't just continue to outright ignore what Shane is actually saying). For one crying out that we are not reading Shane's post, you also have this uncanny ability to not actually understand what is being said. She is stating Gender Roles are a product of societal expectation. Note, this is distinctly different to Gender Identity. You don't need to have a specific gender role in order to assume a particular gender identity. The two are mutually exclusive. But of course, social circles stick up for their buddies even when they're spouting shit, they just block it out. This argument is fucking stupid anyway, since I was never denying the case of genderqueers. However it doesn't change the fact that in my experience, brain and body mismatch does lead to misery, otherwise a lot of transsexuals wouldn't bother to go through with it. I said several times there are, as always, exceptional cases, but that some people take the idea of brain gender too lightly when it comes up, especially in the media. And I distinguished between gener roles and hardwired gender attributes, so I'm unsure what Oriet is upset about. People are getting uppity over nothing. I however am getting quite uppity over Shane's assertion that there is no such thing as "hardwiring", when the majority of research seems to indicate there is. Yes, because it is all a conspiracy against you. Methinks that the lady doth protest too much. Shane is asserting that Gender Roles are societal products. Gender Identity does not revolve around Gender Roles though, and thus the fact of one being a societal product does nothing to impact the fact that the other is inborn. Of course, you seem adamant on misrepresenting Shane's argument and won't see that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong on your interpretation of Shane's posts.
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Post by Vene on Jun 7, 2010 10:50:10 GMT -5
But of course, social circles stick up for their buddies even when they're spouting shit, they just block it out. lol, lurk more, motherfucker. People here argue with each other a lot.
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Post by Oriet on Jun 7, 2010 11:00:54 GMT -5
This. Shane said, outright, there is no such thing as hardwiring. Not "What Shane's REALLY trying to say", this is what Shane actually said. And here you go confusing gender role and identity/expression again. Read what Shane said a bit more carefully; you'll realise Shane is saying there is no hardwiring for roles, not that there isn't any hardwiring differences at all. Yes, there are some structural differences in brains, but they do not influence behaviour patterns nearly as much as societally enforced roles, if even at all (depending on which trait is being talked about).
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