Post by Oriet on Apr 18, 2009 13:30:04 GMT -5
[ETA - Sorry this is a long post, I've come in late in the discussion, and don't know how to properly convey my opinion on this topic any shorter while trying to ensure I'm properly understood.]
Wow, this topic got very emotional really fast. There also appears, to me, to be some lack of proper communication due to different interpretations and intended meanings behind vocabulary and syntax (which furthers my belief that English is lacking when it comes to conveying ideas, likely due to too many differences between colloquial and more academic meanings and usage, as well as dialectal differences, but that's a completely separate topic). Therefore I shall try to only give my own personal (and thus subjective) opinions, interpretations, and experiences on this topic.
First off I am in the Child Free crowd, for a variety of reasons. I am actually uncomfortable around kids, especially to younger ones. For some reason children under ~5 have a tendency to stare at me. I don't mean I feel they pay more attention to me than others around, I mean they quite literally stare, many times they even stop crying or going on about how they want a toy or some such (as I primarily only end up around them while shopping) to do so, and shortly after I'm out of eyesight they continue doing it. I find this downright unnerving and it creeps me out some, and I have no real clue as to why they do this. They've done this even long before I started transition so I don't think it's that I'm not blending well so they stare out of curiosity either. Occasionally older kids will do such as well, though really only noticed ones up to ~12 years of age doing so, but that's fairly uncommon.
Also, when young kids cry, for whatever reason, I physically cringe. This is likely to do with my anxiety, but it happens none the less. I know they have different cries for different things, I can even hear that the cries are different, but I cannot keep them apart to know what they mean. I know they're using it to communicate, as they've not developed linguistic skills (enough) to use words to explain what's wrong, and I don't hold that against them. Learning a language, especially when you don't have another language to use as a base to learn from, is incredibly hard, so it's little wonder it takes years to develop even basic communication skills from which to further learn how to better communicate. This understanding, however, still doesn't diminish my unconscious reactions of cringing and wanting to get away.
With older kids (5~12 ?), who have developed basic or even intermediate levels of communication, I still don't know how to properly communicate with. There are many words and concepts I use in daily speech which they have never been exposed to, or are in other ways foreign to them, whether through lack of experience or because they are still physically developing the brain patterns (sorry if this is the wrong phrase, as I'm not that knowledgeable about brain development and structure) required to grasp the complexities of the abstract concepts I'm discussing (if I am wrong on this aspect of psychological development please correct me; I'm going from what I remember of high school psychology so could be quite off).
Even with older kids who are fairly advanced in their linguistic abilities (for their age group) and topical knowledge, as well as with teens, I'm at a loss for how to adjust my thinking and word choices to both be understood, and to understand just what their meaning (and I don't just mean differences in slang and the memes from their peer groups). Perhaps this is in part because as a kid I was always having to intellectually reach up to interact with my older brother and sister (2 and 4 years older than me respectively), who were reading books targeted at much older audience (such as the Phase and Proton series by Pierse Anthony when they were 9-12), and never really had friends in my age or social development (which was actually behind a couple years for me) range, and so never really learnt how to interact with them. This again makes me uncomfortable as I do not know how to really interact with them, and it's not helped by the fact that I know that even seemingly insignificant experiences in a child's life can have enormous effects, which again triggers my anxiety.
Another reason I'm CF is because I not only have a hard enough time trying to take care of myself (which I still kind of fail at), but I'm fairly incapable of caring for something dependant on me, such as a plant, pet, or more importantly a child, as especially early on they require a lot of care that I am incapable of giving them.
Frankly I find this insulting. Given the context of not only the paragraph, but his whole post, that last line (which I've underlined) states that the only way to "be fulfilled" is to "produce" a child. The last line by itself does not directly say that, no, but in context it certainly reads that way.
He also says:
Even if he didn't mean it this way, it very much reads that he's saying the only way to make a difference is to have a kid. He gave two choices only: complain on the internet, OR raise a kid. Nothing about helping other adults, or even helping other people's kids, but having one of your own. Like I said, perhaps he didn't mean it this way, but given the context of his post and my understand of English grammar and vocabulary, as well as argumentation, that is certainly the meaning he has conveyed.
Part of the reason he's being jumped at for this, beyond the very heavily implied (even if not meant) meanings he conveyed, is because his arguments, and much stronger, directly worded, and most definitely meant arguments are used by many people against those of us who choose to not have children, or even to those who can't have children. It is therefore too easy to categorize his arguments with those that have very directed vitriol and actual hatred (not just dislike, but full out hatred) towards those who are CF, as they are used as the "soft" reasons first given to feel out if a person just hasn't had kids yet, or never plans to have them and so then know whether their one of "us" (meaning those who have kids) or "them" (those who don't want them, and are often vilified).
I especially find hostile the "you'll change your mind" or "you'll grow out of it" phrases. I hear these exact phrases regarding my transsexuality, atheism, and sexual preference. Yes, I know some people change their minds about wanting kids, but if that is what is meant then by all means ensure to preface it appropriately! Sure, it might not be meant as some sort of absolute, but if you do not mean it that way, then don't say it that way.
In fact, regarding people changing their minds about wanting kids, I already have. As my mate MagniZeal has said, we gave it a try. In large part it was the socially expected thing to do, and we were desperately trying to fit in to society, trying to be and do what so many claim is what leads to happiness. It flat off didn't work. I just wanted to hide, my mate was fighting the impulse to throw her out the window, and she was a very well behaved baby. I shudder to think what might have happened if she wasn't. Luckily my mom was nearby (we were living in what was essentially a duplex with an open staircase with her) to take care of the baby, but we were never able to adapt to be able to care for her, no matter how hard we tried. Luckily my aunt and uncle adopted her (they were physically unable to have a kid) so she's able to grow up with parents that can care for her.
Normally this experience is able to make those opposed to the Child Free understanding, but all too often they still ask "so do you plan on having them in a few years when you're more able to care for them?" They don't get that no, we don't plan on having any more, nor do we want any. Because we entered the experience being somewhat unprepared, not having seriously thought about what all was involved, we've since put a great deal of thought into and came to our conclusion. I know other people who have put that serious thought into their decision without having to go through an experience that could ruin a child's life. We were damn lucky we knew a loving couple that was capable of raising a child and wanted one, instead of having to put her into the roulette that the adoption system sadly is; many people do not have that option, and I consider them wiser than me and my mate for knowing such without having to have the harsh experience of it.
Of course, there's another aspect of it that completely baffles people. Do/did we love our child? No, we didn't. We definitely didn't hate her, or even dislike her, but even though we were both there when she was born, and tried to get that attachment, it just wasn't there. She's essentially just a well behaved kid, with no more feelings alloted towards other kids we happen to be around for a while. No, I can't really explain this lack of attachment, I just know it's there. Does it make us monsters? I don't know, some people would say it does, but then if we were monsters, would we have made sure she was put into the hands of a capable and loving couple? Is that somehow worse then being incredibly bad parents to a kid?
As for my opinion on those who love to be around and raise kids, good for them (I don't mean that sarcastically). I admit I don't really understand why they love to be around them, as it's a point of view that's alien to me, but I do understand that they do have those feelings and opinions, and are very often at a loss to understand my view as it's equally alien to them.
[Edited to remove the colour. I'm realizing it's too hard to read, so I shall stop posting in it.]
Wow, this topic got very emotional really fast. There also appears, to me, to be some lack of proper communication due to different interpretations and intended meanings behind vocabulary and syntax (which furthers my belief that English is lacking when it comes to conveying ideas, likely due to too many differences between colloquial and more academic meanings and usage, as well as dialectal differences, but that's a completely separate topic). Therefore I shall try to only give my own personal (and thus subjective) opinions, interpretations, and experiences on this topic.
First off I am in the Child Free crowd, for a variety of reasons. I am actually uncomfortable around kids, especially to younger ones. For some reason children under ~5 have a tendency to stare at me. I don't mean I feel they pay more attention to me than others around, I mean they quite literally stare, many times they even stop crying or going on about how they want a toy or some such (as I primarily only end up around them while shopping) to do so, and shortly after I'm out of eyesight they continue doing it. I find this downright unnerving and it creeps me out some, and I have no real clue as to why they do this. They've done this even long before I started transition so I don't think it's that I'm not blending well so they stare out of curiosity either. Occasionally older kids will do such as well, though really only noticed ones up to ~12 years of age doing so, but that's fairly uncommon.
Also, when young kids cry, for whatever reason, I physically cringe. This is likely to do with my anxiety, but it happens none the less. I know they have different cries for different things, I can even hear that the cries are different, but I cannot keep them apart to know what they mean. I know they're using it to communicate, as they've not developed linguistic skills (enough) to use words to explain what's wrong, and I don't hold that against them. Learning a language, especially when you don't have another language to use as a base to learn from, is incredibly hard, so it's little wonder it takes years to develop even basic communication skills from which to further learn how to better communicate. This understanding, however, still doesn't diminish my unconscious reactions of cringing and wanting to get away.
With older kids (5~12 ?), who have developed basic or even intermediate levels of communication, I still don't know how to properly communicate with. There are many words and concepts I use in daily speech which they have never been exposed to, or are in other ways foreign to them, whether through lack of experience or because they are still physically developing the brain patterns (sorry if this is the wrong phrase, as I'm not that knowledgeable about brain development and structure) required to grasp the complexities of the abstract concepts I'm discussing (if I am wrong on this aspect of psychological development please correct me; I'm going from what I remember of high school psychology so could be quite off).
Even with older kids who are fairly advanced in their linguistic abilities (for their age group) and topical knowledge, as well as with teens, I'm at a loss for how to adjust my thinking and word choices to both be understood, and to understand just what their meaning (and I don't just mean differences in slang and the memes from their peer groups). Perhaps this is in part because as a kid I was always having to intellectually reach up to interact with my older brother and sister (2 and 4 years older than me respectively), who were reading books targeted at much older audience (such as the Phase and Proton series by Pierse Anthony when they were 9-12), and never really had friends in my age or social development (which was actually behind a couple years for me) range, and so never really learnt how to interact with them. This again makes me uncomfortable as I do not know how to really interact with them, and it's not helped by the fact that I know that even seemingly insignificant experiences in a child's life can have enormous effects, which again triggers my anxiety.
Another reason I'm CF is because I not only have a hard enough time trying to take care of myself (which I still kind of fail at), but I'm fairly incapable of caring for something dependant on me, such as a plant, pet, or more importantly a child, as especially early on they require a lot of care that I am incapable of giving them.
That attitude also exemplifies a selfishness that I used to feel too, the idea that a kid would "harsh my buzz" or kill the party that I lived in my youth. If you're young, it's ok to feel that way - I did. But again...there's a point in your life where selfishness becomes self-defeating - when living to please only yourself turns into a cycle of repetition - the same stuff over and over again - immediately satisfying, but unfulfilling in the long run. Put another way, consumption only takes you so far. At some point, to be fulfilled, one must actually produce something.
Frankly I find this insulting. Given the context of not only the paragraph, but his whole post, that last line (which I've underlined) states that the only way to "be fulfilled" is to "produce" a child. The last line by itself does not directly say that, no, but in context it certainly reads that way.
He also says:
I can gripe and complain and bitch about the problems of the world on the internet and debate with people who will never listen or give two shits about what I believe, or I can raise a child/adult to understand all that I find rich in the human experience and who will go out and make a real difference. It's no contest if you ask me.
Even if he didn't mean it this way, it very much reads that he's saying the only way to make a difference is to have a kid. He gave two choices only: complain on the internet, OR raise a kid. Nothing about helping other adults, or even helping other people's kids, but having one of your own. Like I said, perhaps he didn't mean it this way, but given the context of his post and my understand of English grammar and vocabulary, as well as argumentation, that is certainly the meaning he has conveyed.
Part of the reason he's being jumped at for this, beyond the very heavily implied (even if not meant) meanings he conveyed, is because his arguments, and much stronger, directly worded, and most definitely meant arguments are used by many people against those of us who choose to not have children, or even to those who can't have children. It is therefore too easy to categorize his arguments with those that have very directed vitriol and actual hatred (not just dislike, but full out hatred) towards those who are CF, as they are used as the "soft" reasons first given to feel out if a person just hasn't had kids yet, or never plans to have them and so then know whether their one of "us" (meaning those who have kids) or "them" (those who don't want them, and are often vilified).
I especially find hostile the "you'll change your mind" or "you'll grow out of it" phrases. I hear these exact phrases regarding my transsexuality, atheism, and sexual preference. Yes, I know some people change their minds about wanting kids, but if that is what is meant then by all means ensure to preface it appropriately! Sure, it might not be meant as some sort of absolute, but if you do not mean it that way, then don't say it that way.
In fact, regarding people changing their minds about wanting kids, I already have. As my mate MagniZeal has said, we gave it a try. In large part it was the socially expected thing to do, and we were desperately trying to fit in to society, trying to be and do what so many claim is what leads to happiness. It flat off didn't work. I just wanted to hide, my mate was fighting the impulse to throw her out the window, and she was a very well behaved baby. I shudder to think what might have happened if she wasn't. Luckily my mom was nearby (we were living in what was essentially a duplex with an open staircase with her) to take care of the baby, but we were never able to adapt to be able to care for her, no matter how hard we tried. Luckily my aunt and uncle adopted her (they were physically unable to have a kid) so she's able to grow up with parents that can care for her.
Normally this experience is able to make those opposed to the Child Free understanding, but all too often they still ask "so do you plan on having them in a few years when you're more able to care for them?" They don't get that no, we don't plan on having any more, nor do we want any. Because we entered the experience being somewhat unprepared, not having seriously thought about what all was involved, we've since put a great deal of thought into and came to our conclusion. I know other people who have put that serious thought into their decision without having to go through an experience that could ruin a child's life. We were damn lucky we knew a loving couple that was capable of raising a child and wanted one, instead of having to put her into the roulette that the adoption system sadly is; many people do not have that option, and I consider them wiser than me and my mate for knowing such without having to have the harsh experience of it.
Of course, there's another aspect of it that completely baffles people. Do/did we love our child? No, we didn't. We definitely didn't hate her, or even dislike her, but even though we were both there when she was born, and tried to get that attachment, it just wasn't there. She's essentially just a well behaved kid, with no more feelings alloted towards other kids we happen to be around for a while. No, I can't really explain this lack of attachment, I just know it's there. Does it make us monsters? I don't know, some people would say it does, but then if we were monsters, would we have made sure she was put into the hands of a capable and loving couple? Is that somehow worse then being incredibly bad parents to a kid?
As for my opinion on those who love to be around and raise kids, good for them (I don't mean that sarcastically). I admit I don't really understand why they love to be around them, as it's a point of view that's alien to me, but I do understand that they do have those feelings and opinions, and are very often at a loss to understand my view as it's equally alien to them.
[Edited to remove the colour. I'm realizing it's too hard to read, so I shall stop posting in it.]