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Post by captainhooker on Apr 20, 2009 12:37:30 GMT -5
///I've been gone for Spring Break, so I haven't been online in a few days, and it looks like I missed a lot. I'm not going to bother reading this whole thread, my head cant' take it, but I do want to clarify a couple of things.
I find the venom in this thread surprising and sad. I'm a good person and a good father. Most people who know me would agree. I find it sickening that people would judge my fitness as a parent and a man based on 4 paragraphs tossed off in the space of 5 minutes. I'd like to throw out a quick "FUCK YOU" to those who did that. You know who you are.
I never tried to say that I'm better than anyone for having kids or to "demonize" people without kids. Those who replied to my post read a lot into it that I never stated - assumptions about my point of view that couldn't be more wrong.
Maybe my use of the ambiguous "you" or "one" was inappropriate and, in retrospect, unfortunate, but for the most part, I was relating my own process of growth before and after having a child. I use the word "grow" not to imply that those who feel like the referenced "old me" should or need to grow, but because that's what I did. I grew; I changed; I matured. I use those words in reference to my own experience because they are appropriate for describing my life and evolution as a person. I'm not insinuating that that's what anyone who disagrees with me should do. That's what several people who read my post assumed.
No doubt, I hear a lot of voices that echo the younger me. I pointed that out, but I didn't seek to imply that because you said the things I used to say, that you are just like me. I did grow out of that stuff. Should everyone? Who the fuck knows - not me certainly, but I know I'm a better person now than I was then. This is not ONLY from being father - in fact, it could be argued that I was doing these things anyway, but becoming a father definitely forced the issue for me.
Being a father made me reflect upon my insufficiencies, my selfishness, my laziness, my emotional immaturity, and work harder than ever to fix them. For the most part, I've improved. Becoming a father forced me to be a better person. Not better than other people, just better than my old self.
I never said people are incomplete without a child, or that people with kids are better than those without, again, I was speaking for myself. I didn't feel incomplete without one. But now that I have one - my life is richer than it was before.
I never said that people who don't like kids are stupid. I do think it's an irrational opinion because kids are like adults - they can/should be taken upon individual merit. That's an opinion of mine that won't change. On that note, I love my niece, but my nephew is a shit-head, and I personally can't stand the little turd. My like or dislike of each has nothing to do with their age, but of what kind of people they are [becoming].
I never said that having children is the only way to give more of yourself. It's one way that I chose. I have others - music, gardening, my professional career. I'm productive in all those things, but for me, having a child helped me to focus all those things to one end. At the very least, it focused my motivation and enhanced my perspective.
I'm very confused about the reaction that people had to my talk of teaching and influencing my daughter - as if I'm going to lock her in a closet and indoctrinate her. Again - a very brash assumption about what I meant. I can't explain it any better than to say that I look forward to sharing with my daughter the things that I love myself - music, art, good books, sports, gardening, a general love of life.
I may still be a little idealistic about it because my daughter is only 6 months old, but I'm not stupid. Of course, she will grow up and disagree with me on some or all of it, and I will still love her. In fact, I would probably respect her more for it.
In retrospect - I still stand by everything I said, but can see how my wording of things made my motivations a bit ambiguous. I'm a writing teacher and should have known better, but I won't apologize for not taking a half hour to edit and revise my post. What can I say? I logged on, read a thread title, and hammered out a quick response. I was on vacation and this is the internet. I didn't reckon on people taking it so seriously.
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shrike
Junior Member
Polyamorous Atheist
Posts: 56
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Post by shrike on Apr 20, 2009 13:19:25 GMT -5
///I've been gone for Spring Break, so I haven't been online in a few days, and it looks like I missed a lot. I'm not going to bother reading this whole thread, my head cant' take it, but I do want to clarify a couple of things. I find the venom in this thread surprising and sad. I'm a good person and a good father. Most people who know me would agree. I find it sickening that people would judge my fitness as a parent and a man based on 4 paragraphs tossed off in the space of 5 minutes. I'd like to throw out a quick "FUCK YOU" to those who did that. You know who you are. I never tried to say that I'm better than anyone for having kids or to "demonize" people without kids. Those who replied to my post read a lot into it that I never stated - assumptions about my point of view that couldn't be more wrong. Maybe my use of the ambiguous "you" or "one" was inappropriate and, in retrospect, unfortunate, but for the most part, I was relating my own process of growth before and after having a child. I use the word "grow" not to imply that those who feel like the referenced "old me" should or need to grow, but because that's what I did. I grew; I changed; I matured. I use those words in reference to my own experience because they are appropriate for describing my life and evolution as a person. I'm not insinuating that that's what anyone who disagrees with me should do. That's what several people who read my post assumed. No doubt, I hear a lot of voices that echo the younger me. I pointed that out, but I didn't seek to imply that because you said the things I used to say, that you are just like me. I did grow out of that stuff. Should everyone? Who the fuck knows - not me certainly, but I know I'm a better person now than I was then. This is not ONLY from being father - in fact, it could be argued that I was doing these things anyway, but becoming a father definitely forced the issue for me. Being a father made me reflect upon my insufficiencies, my selfishness, my laziness, my emotional immaturity, and work harder than ever to fix them. For the most part, I've improved. Becoming a father forced me to be a better person. Not better than other people, just better than my old self. I never said people are incomplete without a child, or that people with kids are better than those without, again, I was speaking for myself. I didn't feel incomplete without one. But now that I have one - my life is richer than it was before. I never said that people who don't like kids are stupid. I do think it's an irrational opinion because kids are like adults - they can/should be taken upon individual merit. That's an opinion of mine that won't change. On that note, I love my niece, but my nephew is a shit-head, and I personally can't stand the little turd. My like or dislike of each has nothing to do with their age, but of what kind of people they are [becoming]. I never said that having children is the only way to give more of yourself. It's one way that I chose. I have others - music, gardening, my professional career. I'm productive in all those things, but for me, having a child helped me to focus all those things to one end. At the very least, it focused my motivation and enhanced my perspective. I'm very confused about the reaction that people had to my talk of teaching and influencing my daughter - as if I'm going to lock her in a closet and indoctrinate her. Again - a very brash assumption about what I meant. I can't explain it any better than to say that I look forward to sharing with my daughter the things that I love myself - music, art, good books, sports, gardening, a general love of life. I may still be a little idealistic about it because my daughter is only 6 months old, but I'm not stupid. Of course, she will grow up and disagree with me on some or all of it, and I will still love her. In fact, I would probably respect her more for it. In retrospect - I still stand by everything I said, but can see how my wording of things made my motivations a bit ambiguous. I'm a writing teacher and should have known better, but I won't apologize for not taking a half hour to edit and revise my post. What can I say? I logged on, read a thread title, and hammered out a quick response. I was on vacation and this is the internet. I didn't reckon on people taking it so seriously. The point is, you implied with everything you said in your original post that because I don't want children, I'm just a dumb kid that doesn't know what the hell he wants. The whole post came off as extremely condescending. I refrained from responding before, but reading this post, it sounds like you still don't quite get it. You are still trying to relate everyone to your experiences. I'm 31 in five days and I'm more convinced than ever that I don't want a kid of my own...ever. I don't think I'd make a good father, and I don't think I could ever be attentive enough to their needs. You say having kids helped you with your selfishness, but I think it would be extremely selfish of me to have kids. I would be doing it for all the wrong reasons, and the child wouldn't get what they needed from me. I would be having a child for selfish reason and the child would suffer from that. I recognize what goes into raising a child and that is something I don't want. I have no doubt in my mind that I would have an experience very much like Oriet and Magnizeal. I know a lot of people like kids and want kids. I have just as much trouble comprehending why people want kids as people who do want kids have trouble understanding why I don't. The concept is quite foreign to me, and I can't wrap my mind around why people want it, but I understand many do, and you need to understand as well that there are those of us that really, truly don't, and never will want it. My girlfriend has three children (16, 14, and 4), and I quite like them. I'm actually looking forward to being a larger part of their lives as time goes on, but I'm never going to pretend to be their father or try to be a father to them. Their father does a great job of that himself, and I quite like this arrangement...I can be a part of their lives without being ultimately responsible for them.
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Post by captainhooker on Apr 20, 2009 13:41:23 GMT -5
You are still trying to relate everyone to your experiences. No - I'm just relating my experience, period. I had a great life before having a kid. I have an even better life now that I have one. You don't have to agree. It's not your life.
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Post by Redhunter on Apr 21, 2009 4:03:25 GMT -5
///I've been gone for Spring Break, so I haven't been online in a few days, and it looks like I missed a lot. I'm not going to bother reading this whole thread, my head cant' take it, but I do want to clarify a couple of things. I find the venom in this thread surprising and sad. I'm a good person and a good father. Most people who know me would agree. I find it sickening that people would judge my fitness as a parent and a man based on 4 paragraphs tossed off in the space of 5 minutes. I'd like to throw out a quick "FUCK YOU" to those who did that. You know who you are. I never tried to say that I'm better than anyone for having kids or to "demonize" people without kids. Those who replied to my post read a lot into it that I never stated - assumptions about my point of view that couldn't be more wrong. Maybe my use of the ambiguous "you" or "one" was inappropriate and, in retrospect, unfortunate, but for the most part, I was relating my own process of growth before and after having a child. I use the word "grow" not to imply that those who feel like the referenced "old me" should or need to grow, but because that's what I did. I grew; I changed; I matured. I use those words in reference to my own experience because they are appropriate for describing my life and evolution as a person. I'm not insinuating that that's what anyone who disagrees with me should do. That's what several people who read my post assumed. No doubt, I hear a lot of voices that echo the younger me. I pointed that out, but I didn't seek to imply that because you said the things I used to say, that you are just like me. I did grow out of that stuff. Should everyone? Who the fuck knows - not me certainly, but I know I'm a better person now than I was then. This is not ONLY from being father - in fact, it could be argued that I was doing these things anyway, but becoming a father definitely forced the issue for me. Being a father made me reflect upon my insufficiencies, my selfishness, my laziness, my emotional immaturity, and work harder than ever to fix them. For the most part, I've improved. Becoming a father forced me to be a better person. Not better than other people, just better than my old self. I never said people are incomplete without a child, or that people with kids are better than those without, again, I was speaking for myself. I didn't feel incomplete without one. But now that I have one - my life is richer than it was before. I never said that people who don't like kids are stupid. I do think it's an irrational opinion because kids are like adults - they can/should be taken upon individual merit. That's an opinion of mine that won't change. On that note, I love my niece, but my nephew is a shit-head, and I personally can't stand the little turd. My like or dislike of each has nothing to do with their age, but of what kind of people they are [becoming]. I never said that having children is the only way to give more of yourself. It's one way that I chose. I have others - music, gardening, my professional career. I'm productive in all those things, but for me, having a child helped me to focus all those things to one end. At the very least, it focused my motivation and enhanced my perspective. I'm very confused about the reaction that people had to my talk of teaching and influencing my daughter - as if I'm going to lock her in a closet and indoctrinate her. Again - a very brash assumption about what I meant. I can't explain it any better than to say that I look forward to sharing with my daughter the things that I love myself - music, art, good books, sports, gardening, a general love of life. I may still be a little idealistic about it because my daughter is only 6 months old, but I'm not stupid. Of course, she will grow up and disagree with me on some or all of it, and I will still love her. In fact, I would probably respect her more for it. In retrospect - I still stand by everything I said, but can see how my wording of things made my motivations a bit ambiguous. I'm a writing teacher and should have known better, but I won't apologize for not taking a half hour to edit and revise my post. What can I say? I logged on, read a thread title, and hammered out a quick response. I was on vacation and this is the internet. I didn't reckon on people taking it so seriously. I think I understood you pretty well, but yes, without the fact that you were speaking ONLY of yourself, you did seem to imply that you were speaking for others or humans as a whole.
Unfortunately, your post, a long with other minutia, became the centre-point more often then not and the simple OP was lost in pedantic and accusations. And since I'm a well known fucking asshole, belligerent shithead, the fault lies with everyone else.
The harsher responses that you received though, are defensive in nature from having this type of thing thrown at us a lot. You'll probably never understand the depths of this, and I'm not speaking for others nor am I apologizing for what has been said, but I just want you to think of any touchy subject where people over-react and apply that to this subject. It's a hot-button and we are used to people, especially parents because they often get borderline-fundy about it, acting as if we are too lazy, stupid or immature to know what we really want. I know now that you were not doing that or not trying to do that, but it is extremely common.
My uncle was in Vietnam... loud noises make him jump. It's the same kind of thing. My uncle doesn't think a person is trying to shoot him if they pop a champagne cork, but that doesn't stop the thought from leaping to the front of his brain. I hope that makes sense.
DV and Blue: this has been dissected to the nth degree and sidetracked into things that were never supposed to have been brought up. I maintain that I didn't see any or very little support or understanding for ANY reason given why folks don't like kids. Again and again the loaded term "hate" was used by you guys in referring to us individually or as a group. It seemed clear to me by the tone of your posts that you found the anti-side to be rather baseless in their "hatred" and DV even said it was so baseless that she concluded that the "irrational" dismissal of children (apparently impervious to the notion that kids are inherently different by their very definition) was tantamount to racism based on stereotypes. In the past days I had asked for examples of support that was supposedly given for other reasons as I only recall hearing dismissive and loaded ones like DV's comparing a CF persons dislike of children to the same as hating an adult who needs to wear a diaper. That was clearly loaded and not at representative of someone who is acknowledging or conceding any points, so far as I could tell.
And the racism comment has still not been explained to me, from what I understand that comparison hinges on the perceived idea that all children are all extremely personable and charismatic characters who are equal with all adults in every way. CF people often have irrational and illogical hatred for them based on false stereotypes and therefore their choices are based on lies, meaning they are making up reasons to dislike children when there are none. The qualifications involved not having "legitimate" reasons, those reasons not being addressed, some of them being dismissed, and then claiming that it was never implied that "on par with" and "the same as" meant the same thing. The whole thing was repeated and my defense to this stupid comparison was simply dismissed and I was called an "idiot" for not seeing it.
For the last time; disliking children is in not fucking way the same as 'hating black people for "being too loud"' and that IS insulting.
It only seemed to get more dismissive and condescending from there until it bordered on insulting and slander. I suppose it was my fault at that point for continuing, but I should've cut and run if I had known where it was all headed.
I would be happy to continue this thread but not in it's present form.
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Post by captainhooker on Apr 21, 2009 13:53:43 GMT -5
The harsher responses that you received though, are defensive in nature from having this type of thing thrown at us a lot. You'll probably never understand the depths of this, and I'm not speaking for others nor am I apologizing for what has been said, but I just want you to think of any touchy subject where people over-react and apply that to this subject. It's a hot-button and we are used to people, especially parents because they often get borderline-fundy about it, acting as if we are too lazy, stupid or immature to know what we really want. I know now that you were not doing that or not trying to do that, but it is extremely common.
I do understand actually. My parents have harped at me to get married and have kids for the last 15 years. I didn't marry until I was 29, and we waited 4 more years to have our daughter. It drove our parents nuts, and as a result, they did the same to us. For a long time, I was pretty sure I didn't want children, and my wife waffled quite a bit as well. It took me a long while to convince myself that I might be able to handle the task. That said, my op was a bit defensive as well. I was not so much offended by the concept of people not wanting to be parents, but at the contempt for children that many showed. Being a new dad to a child who, not without her faults, is in my eyes as near perfection as nature could possibly create, I took that contempt more personally than I probably should have. I stand firmly by my opinion that people should take kids on their own merit, just as they do adults, and that any contempt for bad kids should be reserved for their parents instead. I honestly do believe that some who claim the hardships of parenthood make it undesirable don't account for the unfathomable love a parent feels for a child - even parents who previously felt themselves incapable of such feelings. Really, I'm about as cold, calculating, and aloof as a person can be, but the moment I saw my daughter, something flipped inside of me. Her cry was the most beautiful thing I'd ever heard. The ungodly stink of a dirty diaper has become a source of comedy now, instead of revulsion. It sounds cliche, but something inside me really did change - whether it's spiritual, chemical, or both, I've become a different person. Either way, I know better than to think that everyone should have kids. God knows, I know enough people who are parents but shouldn't be.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 21, 2009 14:25:39 GMT -5
OK, I'll take one more shot at this, but only because I'm hoping there is still a way to show how we're not that far apart at all.
First, though, I want to point something out, because it might help our discussion. When you say things like this:
That doesn't help anything. I don't recall anyone every calling you those things. And when you overexaggerate how people react to you, especially without any evidence, that just ramps up the potential for problems in the topic. Calling you stubborn is not the same thing as calling you a "belligerant shithead", and I know that you know that. At least try to see it from the point of view of other people on the thread -- when you overexaggerate, it twists the discussion in a way it never was intended to go.
Since you specifically addressed me in your last response, I will try to explain it again. First, when you say:
That simply isn't true; I'm not trying to be provocative when I say this, but you really need to reread all the posts in this thread. Because every person who is in some way "pro" child has expressed in no uncertain terms that they are very supportive of people who do NOT want to have kids. The only person who was unclear was Captain Hooker, and he just cleared it up. I'll use myself as an example. Bluefinger requoted where I had posted what my own position and experience with kids was, but I'll say it yet again, even though I've said it several times. Yes, I have one kid. I do not want more kids. My husband, who is not my son's biological father, does not want any biological children. Most of our friends do not want children for a variety of reasons. We support every one of those reasons (none of them involve hate, incidentally, just for the record). We support them because those same reasons are why we do not want to have more children, or for my husband, any children. You keep overlooking that my position is essentially also your position. I get badgered to have more kids like others here get badgered to have any. I get denied certain kinds of birth control because I'm too "young" and I "might want to have more kids." I know what happens when a person is adamant about not wanting (more) kids. I cannot fathom why you would continue to overlook this, especially when I've said it several times. But everyone else who has kids on this thread has said without reservation they support your and everybody else's decision not to have kids. So it's untrue and grossly unfair to keep the position that there is "very little support and understanding" for the other side because it is just not true. As to the "loaded term hate", we didn't bring that up. The CF "side" did (a side I am also partially on). Reread the thread, and you'll see where it comes into play -- we weren't using it. We were asky why other people were. That brings me to the next part of your quote.
Children are inherently different from adults; but they are also not the same as each other. Why you won't accept that information when there are plenty of posters on this thread who do deal with children on a regular basis and are telling you that kids are not all identical is beyond me, but that's part of what keeps this problem going circular. I do think that hating for reasons that are based on irrational or baseless concerns is the wrong way to go about it, because it's illogical, it's not a good way to make a decision. I can't help that might be how some people operate, and it's not my business. It also doesn't mean I'm supposed to sit down and shut up and not ask questions. The problem with y ou not getting my analogy is that you're still clinging to the notion that all kids are inherently the same. They're not. Holding the false belief that an entire demographic shares the exact same characteristics is a hasty generalization. You're stuck on the racism thing, but you can replace the characteristic, and the analogy is still the same. Thinking all children are the same is no different than the error someone makes when they think all old people are senile. Or whatever you want to substitute there. You're getting hung up on the racism aspect of it. It's the hasty generalization bit. For godssake, I'm not saying all people who hate kids are racist or something.
No. No, no, no. Nobody ever said anything like that, and I challenge you to prove where that was said even one time. It hinges on the problem with thinking all children are exactly alike and can therefore be stereotyped and "hated" for those stereotypical things.
I never said CF people OFTEN have irrational and illogical hatred. Not one time. My own personal experience indicates that is rarely the case. I asked about a few specific reasons why people were saying they hated kids -- their reasons that they gave. I didn't suggest they were making them up or lying. I was asking about the reason. I never said there were no reasons not to dislike kids.
Some of the reasons were NOT legitimate. No one villified every reason. Just asked questions about the ones that seemed odd. I don't recall calling you an "idiot", which you keep putting in quotes like it's a direct quote. Would you mind pointing out where I said that, because I can't find it? If I said it, I apologize in advance. I certainly don't recall doing it.
Please reread the information I just posted and reread the posts in the thread. Stereotyping an entire demographic of people is the same as stereotyping an entire demographic of people. What details you want to fill in for "stereotype" and "demographic of people" doesn't matter. It works the same way.
It's easy to get dismissive when you feel like someone is deliberately misreading what you're posting. And at least let's share the blame for condescension and dismissiveness.
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Post by Oriet on Apr 21, 2009 15:20:57 GMT -5
Oriet, you made an incredibly difficult and painful decision for all the right reasons, and I don't think anyone would think there was anything monstrous about that. And if someone does, well that person is incredibly stupid/fill-in-the-blank. The biggest part of being a good parent is doing what is best for the child--you and Magni very clearly did that. Doesn't mean the child has to stay with you to make you a good parent. I applaud your choices, which had to be incredibly confusing and emotional at the time. See, that's the weird thing... the emotional difficulty was because of what we knew others and society expected from us, as we were the biological parents and all, but yet we didn't have that expected emotional attachment. The other thing I find confusing is that so many people only accept our reasons for being child-free because we gave having a child a go... and they're only fine with the reasons once we explain the history. Just listing them is often seen as "excuses for being selfish" or a "you'll mature and want them." Even still we've sometimes gotten people saying we'll change our minds later and want kids, even though we already had one and found that kids just aren't for us and let them know. Captain Hooker - I didn't think the tone of your post sounded right in contrast with your other posts, so I at least tried to more state how it sounded and came across, not your actual meaning, cause as Dante's Virgil had also pointed out, how it was said wasn't really how you meant it. Thank you for clarifying yourself too, as hopefully that will clear up some confusing and miscommunication.
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