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Post by Admiral Lithp on May 28, 2011 6:06:03 GMT -5
Like Zachski says, very little has changed.
The Jews had it good, compared to what Alexander the Great would do to conqueored territories. Oh, & let's not forget what THEY did when they wanted some new real estate. Really, they were causing shit with the empire that was allowing them to preserve much of their culture & local government.
But regardless, the point isn't who was right or wrong, the point is that the Romans HAD been handling a small group of assholes causing trouble for them for much time--there was even a free Jewish state for a while--& there's really no evidence that the early Christians were like that, but even if they were, it's not something the Empire couldn't handle if it was stable.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on May 28, 2011 6:09:02 GMT -5
Not to mention that the "Christian Persecution" movement? While it may have "happened", it's also bullshit. Why? Because the kinds of persecution that happened also happened to other people for various other reasons. Christians were not in any way singled out.
After all, for entertainment, you don't pick healthy citizens to try to flee the lions, you pick the loonies who don't contribute to society anyways. Note that I am not saying this as if I believe it, and I feel sick typing it anyways.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on May 28, 2011 6:17:47 GMT -5
Well, some of the Emperors just plain went crazy. But I'd like to think that some of that bullshit would have died out during the time that became the Dark Ages, had Rome survived.
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Post by Shane for Wax on May 28, 2011 6:32:25 GMT -5
I would like to point out that a number of factors contributed to the collapse of the Roman Empire. It wasn't just one thing just like every other event in fucking history. So please, stop chattering on about how it was Christianity and Christianity only. One single thing did not 'hasten' it. All the factors contributed just about equally.
Every society rises and falls. It is unavoidable. Our society right now is falling whether people want to believe it or not.
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Post by Caitshidhe on May 28, 2011 7:12:18 GMT -5
(double-post, but this just occurred to me)
Actually, come to think of it, the early church was probably more like an abusive parent. I'll nurture and nourish you one minute and then threaten to kick you out and suffer you eternal damnation the next!
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Post by The_L on May 28, 2011 7:14:09 GMT -5
Any idiot who says Jesus was a Christian has never been to church around Easter. The Passion is almost always read, and in all four gospels, it mentions a sign over his head that said, "The King of the Jews." Not King of the Christians. The JEWS.
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czechmate
Full Member
Czech Republic / UK
Posts: 123
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Post by czechmate on May 28, 2011 8:54:50 GMT -5
That's not to say that people wouldn't have cared for other people were it not for religion. Having helped on disaster relief on several locations around this planet over the last few decades, a persons need for help is regardless of religion. Whenever religious groups get involved in order to push through thier doctrine, the misery is both compounded and elongated. The last thing a mother pining for her missing children needs is a bible being shoved in her face as being the only solution. This, unfortunately, is how several Christian organisations operate, and to thier credit, doesn't happen with Jewish and Islamic helpers. But my credit always goes to Cuba who, in the event of any major catastrophy, send in an army of doctors and surgeons, save many lives then leave without even asking for as much as a thank you. Thier efforts are always blacked out by the media for some reason.
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Post by MaybeNever on May 28, 2011 10:18:57 GMT -5
If the Roman Empire hadn't collapsed, the Dark Ages wouldn't have happened, & think how much ahead-of-schedule our society would be today. This seems to be a common belief, but the collapse of the Roman Empire was probably a very good thing for technological advance. Yeah, things really sucked for several hundred years afterward, but the emergence of multiple squabbling nations with effective sovereignty was one of those things that really drove innovation in various ways. Consider the alternative: China developed more or less like Rome probably would have, with periodic fragmentation and unification, but it grew so heavily bureaucratized and insular that it basically stagnated for six hundred years. I was going to say what Shane said but she beat me to it. There were so many factors at work--successions of incompetent and unfit rulers, food riots, internal strife, the empire stretched too thin and too far to defend itself against the incoming 'barbarians' who themselves were poor and hungry and wanted in on the sitting duck that was Rome--that it would probably be impossible to go back in time to change EVERYTHING. I'll be very fair here and admit that, in its very early days before there were sympathetic social governments, Christianity and Judaism and Islam and all the other religions were very helpful to the poor and the sick and the desperate because they very much lived by the 'love thy neighbour' rule. Early universities were funded by the church, though that was because the church as a megalith was even then probably the single most wealthy entity on the planet. You know, Cait, sometimes you'll be like "I'm really dumb," and then you'll offer pretty much on-the-nose analysis of relatively obscure topics. Be more aware of how smart you are. I COMMAND IT. Any idiot who says Jesus was a Christian has never been to church around Easter. The Passion is almost always read, and in all four gospels, it mentions a sign over his head that said, "The King of the Jews." Not King of the Christians. The JEWS. Yeah, kind of like how Charlemagne was a Roman because he was King of the ROMANS. Oh wait.
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Post by Shane for Wax on May 28, 2011 10:24:16 GMT -5
I was going to say what Shane said but she beat me to it. There were so many factors at work--successions of incompetent and unfit rulers, food riots, internal strife, the empire stretched too thin and too far to defend itself against the incoming 'barbarians' who themselves were poor and hungry and wanted in on the sitting duck that was Rome--that it would probably be impossible to go back in time to change EVERYTHING. I'll be very fair here and admit that, in its very early days before there were sympathetic social governments, Christianity and Judaism and Islam and all the other religions were very helpful to the poor and the sick and the desperate because they very much lived by the 'love thy neighbour' rule. Early universities were funded by the church, though that was because the church as a megalith was even then probably the single most wealthy entity on the planet. That's ont to say that people wouldn't have cared for other people were it not for religion. It's just that credit goes where credit is due and it used to be helpful provided you weren't doing something (like eating chicken during Lent) that could get you excommunicated. God, you're sexy when you do things like this. *hugs and kisses*
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Post by the sandman on May 28, 2011 10:55:53 GMT -5
Of course he wasn't. He was Jewish.
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Post by dakotabob on May 28, 2011 11:22:13 GMT -5
Jesus wasn't a Christian. he was a very naughty boy. (I was gonna go with "he was a Jew" but that was taken")
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Post by SCarpelan on May 28, 2011 11:23:35 GMT -5
Consider the alternative: China developed more or less like Rome probably would have, with periodic fragmentation and unification, but it grew so heavily bureaucratized and insular that it basically stagnated for six hundred years. China had no close neighboring cultures that could compete with it. That was the main thing that caused them to isolate themselves from the outside influences and stop putting resources in developing their society. Since all the cultures they could compare themselves to were "barbaric" compared to them they thought they had already achieved the greatest society on Earth. Rome/Byzantine on the other hand had the Muslim world to compete with them and to exchange innovations with. This prevented them from having any such illusions as China had.
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chagen
Junior Member
Not Banned
Posts: 71
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Post by chagen on May 28, 2011 14:54:26 GMT -5
Am I the only one here that wants to bum a ride on the TARDIS, go back, and stop this Christer bullshit before it even starts? (By which I mean assassinating Constantine AND the entire "council" of Nicea...) And this site keeps trying to convince me that it's members aren't insane anti-theists. Uh-huh.
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Post by sugarfreejazz on May 28, 2011 15:04:14 GMT -5
You're right, one person does make an entire group the same thing. I can find nothing wrong with this sound logic.
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Post by caseagainstfaith on May 28, 2011 15:06:01 GMT -5
You're right, one person does make an entire group the same thing. I can find nothing wrong with this sound logic. Kind of like how the WBC represents all of Christianity am i right? /sarcasm
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