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Post by lonelocust on Nov 9, 2009 0:49:26 GMT -5
davedan no. seeing isn't always beleiving look at the miracles that Jesus did and there were still unbelievers We can't look at the miracles that Jesus did. The same word that says there were miracles said that there were miracles and unbelievers. We have to assume the Bible is true, WHICH WE HAVE NO REASON TO DO, to assume that it provides proof that there WAS proof of miracles and that there were unbelievers.
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 9, 2009 0:48:16 GMT -5
J Although i have not seen evidence myself of a demonic power or another religions healing i would not put it past satan to trick people through that. What happened to "a kingdom divided cannot stand"? If another religion is using powers from Satan but curing illnesses which you say are caused by demons, isn't that a kingdom divided standing? And again, if those other religions say EXACTLY THE SAME THING AS YOU, how would we distinguish your claims from theirs? All your answers have been so far is "because theirs are false and mine is real". How would we know that? We'd already have to agree with you for that to be an acceptable argument, and thus it can't be an argument for us to agree with you. Please answer both parts of the above message. That is A)What about a kingdom divided cannot stand and b)how can we distinguish your claims based only on your word with the claims of other religions based only on their words. (And no, "the bible" is not an answer, that's still just the word of your religion vs. the word of their religion, with both of you claiming said words as god's word.)
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 9, 2009 0:36:02 GMT -5
SANDMAN The reason why i am here is to enlighten those who are here sternly and firmly with a manner of boldness. Sometimes it takes a firm word of reproach for a person to get what they need to get out of the conversation. But i do it out of love for you guys and for all who read after this thread is said and done. As I said a million years ago in this thread, we have all been "enlightened" before. Everyone of us knows what you are selling and have had it sold before. (To be clear, I mean salvation/Christianity, in a metaphorical sense, and am not saying in this case that you are literally selling something for money.) Why don't you love us enough to provide the proof that you claim you have but that we "won't listen to"? Why would we listen to a "firm word" but not evidence? When I was a Christian, evidence and logic sold me out of fundamentalism and then out of Christianity and then out of theism (that's the belief in any sort of god) and non-materialism (that is, the belief in anything outside of the physical universe) entirely. Demonstrably, evidence and argument has vastly changed my worldview in the past. Why do you love us enough for repetition but not for evidence? You keep saying you have it but we wouldn't listen. We're clearly NOT listening to your mere repetition. How is presenting evidence (not in the form of your word on it) the ONE thing that it's just not worth it for you to do? (Also, note that while argument from others sold me out of fundamentalism, I pretty much came to the rest of the conclusions on my own.)
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 8, 2009 6:24:30 GMT -5
NTC i would appreciate it if you did not use those words. As far as answering your questions? there are none i have not answered. valsa i do not know this go to the happy place could be anywhere for a part and goes to show you that it is possibvle to actually go somewhere and leave the place they are in. When i have counceled many there parts speak to me from the bad place as if they are there and not actually out of the hell they go through. One the other night was i believe a three year old part and was sitting on the lap of the one who had molested her ( actually a demon that kept molesting her after the incident) I asked Jesus to come in and get this girl away from this demon and he did and Jesus got rid of the demon and the girl was healed and merged. badgering is not what i do. In one case i have the host personality always states she does not believe she has parts and that i am full of it, then a part comes out and we deal with issues. I always point out the time difference and they always agree and then the next session is the same thing. Do i just play into her and say OK............. you are right you do not have DID i was wrong i'm sorry? or do i say hey .................. you do and this is the proof? So, Nautical, if this alleged person thinks you are full of it, why exactly does she keep having sessions with you? Additionally, if she's losing time, and she is physically speaking to you as an alter while she doesn't remember it, why not just record it and show her? With your possible grands a day, you could get a cheap video camera really easily, and even if you didn't want to drop $150 (which I assume is far less than your trip costs for the numerous trips all over the country that you go on all the time), you can get a cheap audio-only recorder for less than $20. Also, if you can cure all of this so easily by casting out demons, and integrate tons of personalities in a single session, why if you have a willing subject who wants to be cured have you had tons of sessions where she doesn't even realize that anything is wrong? Oh, and one more thing, this doesn't happen to be your ex wife again does it?
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 8, 2009 3:23:59 GMT -5
I don't know about plumbers, but my BFF is an exterminator, and he makes $30-50/hour normally, with a lot of jobs at $100+/hour. Vocational work can make a lot of money. My friend generally works well under 40 hours a week so he has lots of time to do other stuff. Every now and then when he has a trip or something he sells it hard on industrial jobs (I think the really lucrative ones are like pre-construction treatments, but I'm not clear on the details) so he can take a week or two off and have money to spend and still pay the bills.
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 8, 2009 3:14:46 GMT -5
NTC i would appreciate it if you did not use those words. As far as answering your questions? there are none i have not answered. valsa i do not know this go to the happy place could be anywhere for a part and goes to show you that it is possibvle to actually go somewhere and leave the place they are in. When i have counceled many there parts speak to me from the bad place as if they are there and not actually out of the hell they go through. One the other night was i believe a three year old part and was sitting on the lap of the one who had molested her ( actually a demon that kept molesting her after the incident) I asked Jesus to come in and get this girl away from this demon and he did and Jesus got rid of the demon and the girl was healed and merged. badgering is not what i do. In one case i have the host personality always states she does not believe she has parts and that i am full of it, then a part comes out and we deal with issues. I always point out the time difference and they always agree and then the next session is the same thing. Do i just play into her and say OK............. you are right you do not have DID i was wrong i'm sorry? or do i say hey .................. you do and this is the proof? So, Nautical, if this alleged person thinks you are full of it, why exactly does she keep having sessions with you?
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 6, 2009 4:22:54 GMT -5
Cue Nautical assuming that the way Valsa speaks authoritatively about how DID works is because she has it... Valsa if you have the parts turn around and view what else is there they wil be able to see it. Sometimes it is dark and they are unable to turn around but a few simple commands and they will be able to. As far as asking the right questions you would think there would be a list of questions to ask to rule out things and include other things. Yeah! I'm so freaking psychic!
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 5, 2009 3:16:56 GMT -5
Cue Nautical assuming that the way Valsa speaks authoritatively about how DID works is because she has it...
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 4, 2009 7:44:53 GMT -5
I’m just wondering why a “child” would feel the need to explain that he’s “been” anywhere in the first place. I never explained to my parents, for example, where I went when I was asleep. Granted, I don’t have a ton of experience with three-year olds but, if I’m remember correctly, at that age I kinda just assumed I “popped” out of existence when I went to sleep. I have to assume that for a three year old personality who isn’t in control of the body, it’s very similar to sleeping/lose of consciousness. (Assuming that this is all true for the following paragraphs for the sake of discussion.) Though remember we're not talking about a real, actual 3-year-old. This is the construct of a mind shattered by long-term abuse, as an extreme defense mechanism. It may well not act exactly like a real, normal 3-year-old because it's not actually a product of normal development. (Again, just assuming for the halibut that the whole thing is totally true.) It's not like Nautical uses clinical precision and proper protocol for not leading. He wouldn't think twice about saying "where have you been?" and "have you been healed?" and even "Has Jesus healed you?" Actually, I'm totally unclear on what it is that "Jacob" needed to be healed from as an entity.
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 3, 2009 19:37:21 GMT -5
Someone translate what that spewing of words is. Ironbite-my natucial-to-english dictionary's on the fritz again. He decided that some dude he talked to had DID (since apparently everyone in the world has it), and claims that 4 alternate personalities merged into the main personality in the course of 45 minutes.
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 3, 2009 9:31:48 GMT -5
I do think you’re right about kids telling adults what they want to hear. There’s just… something… that seems off about this particular situation to me. Well, what's off about it is that it's totally nucking futs. I don't mean the existence of dissociated identities, but the whole telling and everything. I mean, Nautical is so clearly unhinged that him relating both true or untrue stories pretty much all comes out as bizarre. This is all why I didn't even say anything about it until I was specifically asked about it; it's a difficult thing to even respond to, because the whole thing is so incoherent. Yeah, I'm with you there on not having heard of anything like that. But again, if there's a real actual childlike personality, it telling Nautical what he wants to hear makes perfect sense. Well, for one thing, this whole thread has piqued my interest in reading DID case studies again.
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 3, 2009 4:16:59 GMT -5
However, this 3-year-old boy with a totally different personality sounds like a real dissociated identity. I don't know if I agree with that- something just sounds "off' about the things "Jacob" says if he's an actual alter. Mostly the whole "I've been with Jesus" thing he apparently related as to explain where he's been since he disappeared. A three year old alter would, presumably, act like a regular three year old, not a delusional one. And while it could be he’s lying about thinking he’s been hanging out with Jesus (I know I told some whopper lies when I was little), it just doesn’t seem realistic to me. Mileage may vary on that though. Sorry, I meant in comparison to Nautical being certain I have a true Christian dissociated identity because I had a wacky supernatural thriller dream where I fought demons on behalf of a shady quasigovernment organization, or that Ibby had a demon typing through him because he wouldn't type (or copypaste) certain phrases that nautical demanded. That seems reasonable, as would be that she's just fucking with him for attention or for the lulz. I don't feel like I could say without knowing her, and I certainly don't believe that Nautical is capable of giving us an accurate description, seeing as he's 100% sure about the Ibby/demon thing and insists over and over that we all saw it. I'm not super-knowledgeable about the sorts of things that manifest with dissociated identities. I'm only aware that some sort of "acting out" tends to occur with at least some dissociated identities, and that being extremely passive and shy is another common trait. However, if we're going on ways that actual three-year-olds would act, it's REALLY common for children to parrot what they think adults want to hear in order to get approval. Assuming there was actually a 3-year-old dissociated identity taking control, telling an adult figure of importance in his life that he'd been with Jesus, because he knows that figure thinks being with Jesus is great, seems reasonable. I also think that dissociated identities sometimes do have constructed pasts or memories, but I'm not sure about that.
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 3, 2009 0:41:40 GMT -5
If someone has done hundreds of sessions with people all over the world casting out demons and healing them Through the power of Jesus Christ and there wife was present for maybe two of the sessions and had demons cast out of her would say she is part of the ministry or not? You have already made statements that are contrary to this being her only involvement. She cannot have both only been a subject of having demons cast out of her AND have been the sole source of information about what angels and demons were doing during the leviathan fight. If she is going on trips with you for the purpose of the ministry, and is sometimes (always?) being your sole source of information for what demons are doing, then yes, I would say she is part of the ministry. Certainly she understands what you are doing. Yes, she clearly does. Whether she knows details of what you have done with other subjects or not, she knows you believe you are fighting demons and what your metaphysical paradigm is. I don't really see how that is relevant. But to just answer it, if she could "see" the angels and demons, and you couldn't, then yes, she knows more. (Note again, I don't believe there are any angels or demons. I think this is all the product of wishful thinking and/or delusion and/or just making stuff up. But I can suspend that disbelief for a minute, assume it's true, and if she has sensory perceptions of spiritual entities and you don't, then she knows more. No, I am not forgetting that. Whatever point you were trying to support, the fact is that you claimed she had no knowledge of or interest in your ministry, and then that she was the source of information about the leviathan fight. These things do not go together. Additionally, even without that information, you refuse to acknowledge what we've pointed out which is the whole "water of life" thing has cultural existence. Whether or not you told her about it BEFORE the session where she reacted to the water of life, she would know what the paradigm expected the water of life to do. Anyone who is a believer in your particular brand of religion would, whether you told them about it or not. Anyone who just grew up in our American culture where these ideas are all around would know what would be expected whether or not they were directly told. (And as Valsa said, all sorts of other cultures have similar mysticisms around water, but that's aside from the question.) But again, this is a red herring. Whatever point you were trying to support does not matter. She clearly has knowledge of your ministry. She has DIRECTLY PARTICIPATED, to the point that YOU would not have participated if she had not been there, because you had no other source of information that there was a demon or angels about. Red herring red herring red herring. (I disagree with your actual statement for the reasons above, but it's still a red herring.) Whether or not she would have known about that one thing, your multiple and emphatic claims that she knew nothing about the ministry, didn't participate beyond being a subject of casting out demons and maybe saw 2 or 3 other deliverances is shown to be a lie by the leviathan story. It does not matter what you were trying to support with the falsehood; it was still false, and going back to try different supports for the claim for which you originally presented the falsehood as evidence does not change the falsehood. Well, I didn't comment on it because it strikes me as the ravings of a lunatic. And it IS the ravings of a lunatic, even if you're telling the 100% truth on it. If you ex really truly has DID, then A)I feel very sorry for her for having to have experienced the sort of abuse that leads to real DID, and B)as Valsa already covered, the very existence of dissociated identities shows a lack of healing. If you thought that an alter went away, and then it came back, then she's know better than she was before. Recovery from DID means no longer having the alternate personalities. For that matter, I'm confused on what YOU think the personalities are. Do you think they're actual other people (other souls?) with their own existence, somehow in the host's body? The dissociated identities are constructs of your ex's mental illness. Part of me really wonders if she's purely just messing with your, or if you're making shit up. Since you feel that you have proven that I have DID and you think you have talked to an alternate identity, and I know you're incorrect and stubborn about it (not to mention you being certain you were talking to demons through ibby when everyone else realized it was just him talking in his normal way), I'm not exactly ready to believe that you have actually seen other people's true dissociated identities. However, this 3-year-old boy with a totally different personality sounds like a real dissociated identity. Additionally, if the woman you were very much in love with for a long time actually suffers from DID, it makes sense why you would want to believe EVERYONE has DID. I originally was guessing maybe you personally actually had DID and were rationalizing what you had gone through by projecting it to be very common when it's really very uncommon and only the result of terrible and long-term trauma, but I could see the same thing making sense if the real case you are familiar with is someone you love(d) very much.
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 1, 2009 21:15:23 GMT -5
In fairness to Nautical, if HE doesn't see those things as contradictory, then he's not being dishonest. (at least not intentionally) I'm usually quite willing to make that compromise, but this is just incredibly over-the-top and I find it hard to believe that even someone with incredibly limited intelligence couldn't see the difference. I can stretch to say that he believes he fought the demon assuming his wife's alternate personality in fact described the thing, though it's an extreme stretch to believe that he doesn't realize that it was misleading of him to recount the whole story without mentioning that he didn't see/hear/sense anything, but just had the whole thing recounted to him through his wife. My ability to stretch my imagination to say he doesn't think he's being misleading by saying his wife was never involved in his demon-casting shenanigans except to be the subject of "deliverance" herself while she was the sole source of information that he was fighting a demon is taxed beyond my ability.
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Post by lonelocust on Nov 1, 2009 11:01:29 GMT -5
Lonelocust getting deliverance is not being part of the ministry. Just like the mayor coming out to pitch the first pitch of the world series. Yeah he pitched a ball but he wasn't part of the game. Being the SOLE SOURCE of information about your battle with a demon is NOT "staying out of it", "showing no interest", or "knowing almost nothing about it". And you were not casting that demon out of her. You were not "ministering" to her; she was participating with you in what you believed to be a battle with a demon. The assertion that she basically knew nothing about your ministry is a clear lie, and you are continuing to try to assert it. Words do not get to mean what you want them to mean.
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