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Post by brendanrizzo on Oct 9, 2011 19:42:41 GMT -5
www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/salvific-will.htmThis whole site is just vile. I think I should point out right now that these people are NOT associated with the mainstream Catholic Church, and that their opinions do NOT reflect those of modern Catholics. But in this article and another one called "Unbaptized Infants Suffer Fire and Limbo is a Pelagian Fable" these... sociopaths basically say that God could have made everyone free from sin, but chose not to just because He wants some (in fact, most) people to suffer forever in hell. The problem of evil absolutely will not work on these guys. They already believe that God is a Complete Monster. The terrifying thing is, they think that their horrific (and heretical) God is good anyway. I should also mention that this site is almost certainly not a Poe, or if it is, it is a highly elaborate one.
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Post by mechtaur on Oct 9, 2011 19:45:42 GMT -5
This sounds a little like Catholicism mixed with Calvinism, to be honest.
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Post by brendanrizzo on Oct 9, 2011 19:54:31 GMT -5
Oh, it is. I later looked up "supralapsarianism" and it turns out that only Calvinists believe that, which gives the delicious and poetic irony that, since the webmasters of the site are staunch Catholics, they themselves are heretics. (And doubly so, since they consider St. Thomas Aquinas to have held a heretical position-- by definition, saints cannot be heretics.) Which just shows that they are completely impervious to reason; otherwise they'd be next in line for hellfire.
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Post by Thejebusfire on Oct 9, 2011 20:08:22 GMT -5
And they say Satan is the evil one.
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Post by largeham on Oct 9, 2011 20:37:16 GMT -5
I've never understood Calvinism. Some people are destined to go to heaven and other destined to go to hell? Then my don't people just go nuts and do what they want if their reward/punishment is fixed?
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Post by Tiberius on Oct 9, 2011 20:44:46 GMT -5
I've never understood Calvinism. Some people are destined to go to heaven and other destined to go to hell? Then my don't people just go nuts and do what they want if their reward/punishment is fixed? Calvinism is based on the idea that god is truely all knowing and all powerful, and thus knows the future. If he knows the future, he knows what decisions you will make, and thus, already knows if you are going to hell or not. The people who behave badly were destined to behave badly and go to hell. those who are part of the elect behave correctly, and were destined to behave correctly, and are thus predestined to go to heaven. Calvinism is more or less the logical conclusion of Christianity.
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Post by largeham on Oct 9, 2011 20:46:31 GMT -5
I see. So free will doesn't exist at all (aside from being an illusion)?
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Post by Tiberius on Oct 9, 2011 20:47:43 GMT -5
I see. So free will doesn't exist at all (aside from being an illusion)? Precisely.
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Post by Meshakhad on Oct 9, 2011 22:46:06 GMT -5
Heretics.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 10, 2011 5:42:16 GMT -5
Oh hey, a rare case where heretics are actually bad.
Who'da thunk?
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Post by brendanrizzo on Oct 10, 2011 9:49:57 GMT -5
Calvinism is based on the idea that god is truely all knowing and all powerful, and thus knows the future. If he knows the future, he knows what decisions you will make, and thus, already knows if you are going to hell or not. The people who behave badly were destined to behave badly and go to hell. those who are part of the elect behave correctly, and were destined to behave correctly, and are thus predestined to go to heaven. Calvinism is more or less the logical conclusion of Christianity. Of course, it's also popular with modern Christian conservatives. Surely that must be a coincidence, right? There's no way that they're just using their religion as an excuse to be selfish jerkasses who only care about themselves, right? Right? [/sarcasm]
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Post by Old Viking on Oct 10, 2011 14:37:44 GMT -5
Pondering the non-existent.
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murdin
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by murdin on Oct 11, 2011 13:34:25 GMT -5
Of course, it's also popular with modern Christian conservatives. Surely that must be a coincidence, right? There's no way that they're just using their religion as an excuse to be selfish jerkasses who only care about themselves, right? Right? Well, in my experience, they believe in a somewhat different - and even more self-serving - version of this little trick. Since anyone who dies while being sincerely repentant of their sins goes to Heaven, they get to be as dishonest about their Christian beliefs as they want throughout their lives, as long as they are able to formulate a thought of sincere repentance just before they die. Which I suppose isn't exactly difficult : Also note how for Salvation freaks, being rescued back from the brink of death is basically a huge kick in the 'nads. They have been forced to face the utter hypocrisy of their lifestyle, yet they are still alive. Awkward. This is, I think, the ugly truth behind this kind of "spiritual awakenings" - people who hold a superstitious belief in eternal punishment, but don't really care about religion or morality as much as they pretend to, until they are "trapped" into it by the aforementioned superstition.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Oct 12, 2011 22:11:12 GMT -5
To be honest, I don't see how anyone can be okay with the concept of eternal damnation, regardless of whether they believe in free will or not. Never-ending torture is infinitely disproportionate to any crime a person can commit in a finite life.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 12, 2011 22:16:51 GMT -5
Not to mention hell isn't even biblical. If anything, it seems to indicate that the punishment for failing to check the right box is more of a "final death" than anything.
Which is still fucking disproportionate.
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