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Post by mistermuncher on May 13, 2009 18:44:58 GMT -5
If we can't hold all speechifying to the same kind of standards, be it from what is apparently our constituency (for want of a better word), or other quarters, it's simply hypocrisy. If atheist quotes are barred from FSTDT by fiat, we'd be no better than the morass of agreement boards that provide such lulz for all here.
FSTDT has always had standards. They're not just for outsiders. A little introspection, as a community, is probably healthy. Without it, we'd be a set of nodding dogs. The effort must always be to play the ball, not the man.
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Post by Old Viking on May 13, 2009 18:48:00 GMT -5
I never realized till now what pure-minded and noble creatures we all are. Philosophers to a man (or woman). Zeus forbid that any of us should ever be angry. It's altogether too ... human. And besides, it might offend those whom we despise.
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Post by mistermuncher on May 13, 2009 18:52:55 GMT -5
Anger is a gift, ould hand. There's a line where anger becomes generalised, blood spitting hatred, though. Moreso than it offending those we despise, it gives the impression that as a community, we harbour the same bloody-minded intolerance as the blood and thunder merchants and Liars for *insert deity here*. I honestly couldn't give the most leisurely of fucks how offensive some random fuckwit fundie might find the quote. What I care about is the impression such a thing gives to a reasonable individual.
(Edited for grammatical asshattery)
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Post by tygerarmy on May 13, 2009 19:34:23 GMT -5
Atheists could definitely be fundies. Atheists do have beliefs. Atheists believe there is no god, gods or afterlife. A strict adherence to these principles without compromises is fundamentalism. As logical rational people atheist should acknowledge other peoples right to have a religion and the possibility that they are wrong.
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Post by Lady Renae on May 13, 2009 19:54:19 GMT -5
Something I've not understood that this whole bruhaha perfectly illustrates: A lot of you say you stay away from mainpage because it's full of vitriol and idiocy (and I don't mean the quotes). Wouldn't it be better, therefore, for you to be out there on the mainpage making your voices heard over and over again and in force until the asshats get tired of not being tolerated and run off, so that the mainpage becomes a place you actually like visiting? If nobody speaks up, it isn't going to get any better. Same if enough people don't speak up. And no, speaking here is NOT speaking up. Speaking up only happens if the people you can't stand can hear you. I hope you are not seriously advocating that we run everyone off from the main page who allows themselves to indulge in blowing off steam, releaseing some pent up anger, or having a good rant? [sarcasm] Should we appoint mods to remove all DIAF and cactus rape references, after all we should only say something if it is reasoned logic or clever and witty right? Obviously it is wrong to ever allow ourselves to say anything that reflects negatively on the great bastion of logic and rationality that is atheism. Why that might cause the fundies to think poorly of us or something!  [/sarcasm] While there are threads on the main page that get too snarky for me to personally enjoy, it does serve a legitimate purpose. In case you have not noticed the correlation, the funny fundie quotes usually have mostly funny comments, those promoting the oppression of others usually have many angry comments. Where else is there that we are allowed to express this anger to society at large? My entire family is fundie, it isn't like I can bitch to them about it, mostly my co-workers are christian, no help there either (besides that, going on anti-theist rants at work would get me fired). The main page is sometimes used by atheists (and yes anti-theists too) to 'shout their rage from the rooftops' so to speak, so what? Shouldn't it be used in that way too along with being funny? When someone gets carried away and actually says something that is blatently fundie then I'm fine with submitting their quote and publishing it on the main page. That is a good mechanism to use and causes discussion and thought about what is appropriate to say. You seem to be suggesting that what we should do is to gang up like Mr. Mann and his fundie horde at R.R. on anyone who expresses themselves in a way we (who is we, anyway?) don't like. making your voices heard over and over again and in force until the asshats get tired of not being tolerated and run offAre you really sure that is a policy that you want to encourage? (especially on an unmoderated page?) One of these days, I have GOT to get better communication skills. Seriously. No, I wasn't encouraging that people try to run off the people on mainpage. That was EXTREMELY poor word choice on my part worthy of facepalm. What was going on in my brain was that the worse people might go away on their own like some of the forumites have gone away from the mainpage as a result of those commenters' actions. I didn't mean to imply that I wanted people to directly cause this to happen. I also did not mean to imply that we should moderate out all the DIAF and other type comments. Blatant spam? Yes. Double/triple posts that accidentally happened? Yes. Blatant trolling? Sometimes. People just getting pissed at the poster and saying stupid things? Hell no. People can be as stupid as they like. That isn't my job to take care of, nor should it be. I just fucked up all over the place with that one. Wow. I would do further backpedaling, but I'm honestly not sure where to go from this point. Edited to specify who exactly was on the receiving end of the facepalm, as that wasn't entirely clear the first time around. |
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Post by Bluefinger on May 13, 2009 20:03:12 GMT -5
Atheists could definitely be fundies. Atheists do have beliefs. Atheists believe there is no god, gods or afterlife. A strict adherence to these principles without compromises is fundamentalism. As logical rational people atheist should acknowledge other peoples right to have a religion and the possibility that they are wrong. Just to point out a minor problem with this. It isn't so much as a belief, but more of disbelief, much in the same way one may say that they don't believe in leprechauns, except applied to deities. Atheists do have beliefs, yes, but they don't include deities in those beliefs. Atheism is on itself a pretty broad term, and honestly, not that great of a label. Good for getting a point across about one's disbelief, but doesn't say much on what one DOES believe. |
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Post by Oriet on May 13, 2009 20:28:05 GMT -5
I'd say another way to look and Fundism is that it is a mindset, with the particulars of the beliefs they adhere to being how their fundism manifests.
As for how this meshes with atheism, one must also realize there are different types of atheists. The de facto atheists could be considered agnostics, as while they do not believe in any gods it is because there is a lack of evidence for any. Given conclusive evidence and they will become deists, but until such time they live there life as though there are no gods. Then you have what are often called "strong atheists," who strongly believe that there are no gods, in the same manner that theists believe that there are no other gods than their own. It is not that they have logically and scientifically ruled out the current proposed gods, but that they ardently believe there are none, often without evidence or sufficient logic, just as the religious believe that other religion's gods don't exist and yet lack evidence or sufficient logic. It is then these "strong atheists" who, at least more often than de facto atheists, can be extremely fundie in their belief that there are no gods, just as much as religious fundies are in their belief in their particular version of whatever deity.
Further proof that it is not the religious beliefs a person holds that make them fundie, there are clearly fundie racists, misogynists, feminists, conservatives, liberals, or any other set of ideas and principles with which the person lives their lives and tries to force others to do likewise. This is because it is the mindset, the way in which they act out their beliefs, not the beliefs themselves that make them fundie.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 13, 2009 20:35:18 GMT -5
Atheists do have beliefs. Well, some say the belief that there is no god and some say the lack of belief in god (like I do). Well, atheism means you don't believe in any god(s), but I'm not sure if that necessarily excludes an afterlife. I don't believe in god. If you want to call that a principle, fine, but it is only one. And what compromise should I make? Should I think god(s) only exist some of the time? I should say that a strict adherence is necessary to call myself an atheist. Here's a nice article on why "atheist fundamentalist" is nothing more than a meaningless oxymoron: atheism.about.com/b/2005/09/06/fundamentalist-atheists.htm |
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Post by Dragon Zachski on May 13, 2009 21:14:16 GMT -5
Well, atheism means you don't believe in any god(s), but I'm not sure if that necessarily excludes an afterlife. My curiosity is intrigued. I thought all atheists believed that when we die, we just ceased to exit. What kind of afterlife WOULD an atheist believe in though? An eternal dream-like state? |
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Post by cagnazzo on May 13, 2009 21:20:27 GMT -5
Well, atheism means you don't believe in any god(s), but I'm not sure if that necessarily excludes an afterlife. My curiosity is intrigued. I thought all atheists believed that when we die, we just ceased to exit. What kind of afterlife WOULD an atheist believe in though? An eternal dream-like state? Anything? It's not incompatible. Atheism is defined usually as either nonbelief in a god or disbelief in a god. That's really it, and people mean it when they say that's it. Do you watch BLEACH? That world is (I've only seen up to episode 115 or so, so I COULD be wrong) an atheistic world. There's no gods, though there are evil spirits, good spirits, an afterlife, guides to said afterlife, what amounts to ghost police, etc. Technically it's atheistic though. You're unlikely to find many atheists that believe in spirits and such as skepticism over gods tends to be part of a broader skepticism but it doesn't have to be. Any afterlife, spirit belief, belief in magic, etc. is compatible with atheism. An atheist only has to lack belief (or disbelieve) in gods (you have to fiddle around with the definition of gods, clearly, but most people recognize them as distinct from spirits). |
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 13, 2009 21:20:30 GMT -5
Well, atheism means you don't believe in any god(s), but I'm not sure if that necessarily excludes an afterlife. My curiosity is intrigued. I thought all atheists believed that when we die, we just ceased to exit. What kind of afterlife WOULD an atheist believe in though? An eternal dream-like state? Don't some Buddhists believe in a form of an afterlife? And they don't believe in gods. |
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Post by cagnazzo on May 13, 2009 21:23:17 GMT -5
My curiosity is intrigued. I thought all atheists believed that when we die, we just ceased to exit. What kind of afterlife WOULD an atheist believe in though? An eternal dream-like state? Don't some Buddhists believe in a form of an afterlife? And they don't believe in gods. Ah, a perfect example. I'm not sure which branches of Buddhism believe what, but I do know some Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which is a kind of afterlife belief, without necessarily believing in gods. |
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Post by lunarxero on May 14, 2009 3:30:19 GMT -5
Atheists could definitely be fundies. Atheists do have beliefs. Atheists believe there is no god, gods or afterlife. A strict adherence to these principles without compromises is fundamentalism. As logical rational people atheist should acknowledge other peoples right to have a religion and the possibility that they are wrong. Not entirely true. Atheism is only defined by a belief that there is no god/gods or the lack of a belief in a god/gods. Afterlife doesn't factor into it. |
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Post by caretaker on May 14, 2009 7:08:51 GMT -5
*Scratches head* Does it matter whether we refer to them as atheist fundies or anti-theists? The definitions are basically, for our purposes, exactly the same.
I'm getting pretty fed-up of the wankfest, now. JohnTheAtheist in particular is becoming very repetitive and tedious. Regardless of the number of coherent, eloquent points put to him, he responds with "fuck you, religion is [insert long spiel about evil here] and you're fucking dumb and so is anyone who agrees with you". He was always a little too venomous for my taste, but oi, vey, grow up.
Anti-theists/fundie atheists sicken me just as much as religious fundies do, if not more so because of the support they have from fellow bigots on the mainpage.
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Post by Bluefinger on May 14, 2009 7:24:33 GMT -5
*Scratches head* Does it matter whether we refer to them as atheist fundies or anti-theists? The definitions are basically, for our purposes, exactly the same. I'm getting pretty fed-up of the wankfest, now. JohnTheAtheist in particular is becoming very repetitive and tedious. Regardless of the number of coherent, eloquent points put to him, he responds with "fuck you, religion is [insert long spiel about evil here] and you're fucking dumb and so is anyone who agrees with you". He was always a little too venomous for my taste, but oi, vey, grow up. Anti-theists/fundie atheists sicken me just as much as religious fundies do, if not more so because of the support they have from fellow bigots on the mainpage. Ummm, might I point out that not all anti-theists are like that? Technically, I am an anti-theist in the sense that I am pretty critical of religion and do share the sentiment that it does not really do any good (at least not any more so than a secular institution). Something that relies on dogma in order to proliferate is not something I deem to be any good for the society as a whole. Of course, I'm not rabid about it, but that's the difference. I'm not going "Religion is the root of all evil", but it sure has done enough to show it really isn't that great. So what you are complaining about is fundie anti-theists, not anti-theists in general. |
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[/sarcasm]
