nuitarihw
Junior Member
What's holding up is a mirror
Posts: 90
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Post by nuitarihw on Mar 16, 2009 15:57:03 GMT -5
And notice how the initial issue is different for christians as they are either christians or not. Sure, there are the fundies, and the ones who are christian when it's convenient for them, but most folks simply get by with, "I'm a christian, I belief jesus christ is my personal saviour." I never got hassled to the nth degree about what my exact percentage of "christian" I was... I didn't get called out for making the definative statements about the bible that I did, no. But a negative statement as, "I don't see enough proof to think that is true," or "You've in no way convinced me of your stance" is called being "militant"! It's being called "arrogant". Our honest reaction to a story that is told to us is being "fundie" because the one trying to convince me of it's legitimacy hasn't made a convincing case... How fucking ridiculous is that. I don't hear people being told that they aren't REALLY christians because it would be arrogant to say that they "JUST KNOW" that god exists so that they must be "soft christians" or "weak christians". But an atheist/agnostic can't make a statement about their lack of belief without someone trying to shovel the benefit of the doubt (which is complete horseshit) on top of it. Without proof for it, religion is nothing but a figure of speech. And this I agree with. Except I think that without proof religion is more like a set of possibly dangerous opinions. Never wrong, never right, but damn are people dead set in stone that theirs are the best.
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rhi
New Member
The day needs my saving expertise!
Posts: 24
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Post by rhi on Mar 17, 2009 0:03:51 GMT -5
I'm atheist, but as discussed already in this thread, most Christians would label me agnostic because I don't try to prove there's no God any more than I try to prove that there are no invisible pink unicorns. Also, I'm nice to Christians for the most part, because I'm nice to people in general for the most part. Yesterday some neighbors of mine, a jovial guy named Gary and his wife Andrea, came over to introduce themselves while I was sweeping the driveway. Andrea reached in her wallet and pulled out two little cards with a Jesus-on-the-cross painting printed on one side and a Bible verse on the other. I accepted them with a smile and a sincere "thank-you." Later I realized two things: that I had treated Andrea exactly like I treat my 3-year-old nephew when he makes some work of "art" and presents it to me proudly. It's something I couldn't possibly have any use for, but it means something important to him and so my gratitude is sincere when I accept it from him. And the second thing, that Gary and Andrea probably assumed I am Christian, since I didn't say anything to the contrary and they never came out and asked. I can just imagine their response if they happen to knock on our door one day and talk to Jeff, who is a much more abrasive anti-religious personality, and he tells them we're both atheist. "But... but... she's a nice person! She took those prayer cards and smiled! She didn't try to convince us there's no God. She can't be atheist. She must be agnostic." I do this a lot actually. but I like to think that I will reveal my lack of belief in their god to them at some point, an then they will look at me for me and not excuse things because they think I'm christian. It's dishonest to a degree. I realize it is complicated, and some folks in religious areas will react negatively to open atheism, but by the same token things aren't going to change if we continue to hide our brains from those who may just be too stupid to know how to handle it. Also, I think of it this way; what if they didn't give you jesus literature, but white power or right wing or anti-abortion literature? I'm not equating them exactly, but still... if they were earnest and nice people and smiled the whole time, would it be good or bad to speak up? If just to be honest with oneself if nothing else. I'm not hounding or yelling at you by the way, hell, you don't have to say a fucking thing if you don't want to, your story just made me think of how much of a benefit you are doing to them or to yourself by basically pretending to be christian (not correcting them in their assumption). It's basically a lie by omission. I think you assumed a little too much about this interaction. I don't have a lot of contact with my neighbors. This 15-minute casual introduce-yourself conversation is the first and only contact I've had with this couple in the 2 years since I bought this house. Like I implied, it didn't even cross my mind during this conversation that announcing my spiritual identity was warranted. The conversation was about the weather, my house, my alma mater, and Burger King. I don't see atheism as a religion, or even really as a part of my identity. I think religion is silly. I think professional sports are silly. I don't make a point of announcing to everyone the first time I meet them that I think either of those things are silly; it's just not something that occurs to me. Anyone who knows me for more than a few days will inevitably find out I'm atheist. It will come up in conversation, or they will ask me straight out when I'm busy daydreaming about llamas and septic tanks or something equally unrelated. So it's not like I'm hiding it. I'm very willing, most people probably think TOO willing, to engage in debate about how silly religion (or professional sports for that matter) is. But I'm not wearing it on my sleeve either. I think assertively calling attention to the fact that I'm atheist is giving religion too much credit. Just like making a point of saying to everyone you know during an unrelated conversation, "You know, I don't believe in Bigfoot." gives too much credit to Bigfoot-believers. My best weapons against the ridiculousness of theism are indifference, disdain, and leading by example; i.e. by being a real-life embodiment of morality, responsibility, rationality and contentment without the aid of invisible friends.
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Post by Redhunter on Mar 17, 2009 2:50:34 GMT -5
Jesus fucking christ... I glanced through your response and if this is going to continue beyond this, a new thread needs to be started. Basically you have some "ideas" or whatever that are based on assumptions and others that are "as read". Well, they aren't.
Militant has two distinct meanings, both infer aggression and attacking. My stating, "The story of jesus is a bunch of shit" is not ANY fucking different than a theist asserting the opposite. Only YOU don't call them militant, but you use it against me. "Oh, praise jaysus!" isn't militant, according to you, but my "Oh, what a crock of shit!" IS? NO! NO! NO!
Don't you see? If strongly vocal is "militant" than most christians are fucking militant! Moving on.
A theist... who openly proclaims their belief in god, isn't held to a test or forced to call themselves "Weak" for example. THEY are the ones, by making that statement, who have put forth their beliefs as a fact. It is NOT fact. Not at all. But they aren't questioned about their percentage points like an atheist is.
They are not called "militant" for stating "I believe in jesus" but I often am called it for stating, "I think your religion is bogus."
I find that to be really, really fucking wrong.
I swear a lot. I'm not automatically angry each time I post or call someone a name. But I wasn't even talking to you to begin with so I don't take a conversation too seriously when you are misusing a word in trying to explain to me what SOMEONE ELSE said. "Militant" is used to infer aggression that is beyond swear words or blasphemy. I am not that way. If I am, then by definition, most christians are more militant than I am. PERIOD.
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Post by Redhunter on Mar 17, 2009 2:57:22 GMT -5
And notice how the initial issue is different for christians as they are either christians or not. Sure, there are the fundies, and the ones who are christian when it's convenient for them, but most folks simply get by with, "I'm a christian, I belief jesus christ is my personal saviour." I never got hassled to the nth degree about what my exact percentage of "christian" I was... I didn't get called out for making the definative statements about the bible that I did, no. But a negative statement as, "I don't see enough proof to think that is true," or "You've in no way convinced me of your stance" is called being "militant"! It's being called "arrogant". Our honest reaction to a story that is told to us is being "fundie" because the one trying to convince me of it's legitimacy hasn't made a convincing case... How fucking ridiculous is that. I don't hear people being told that they aren't REALLY christians because it would be arrogant to say that they "JUST KNOW" that god exists so that they must be "soft christians" or "weak christians". But an atheist/agnostic can't make a statement about their lack of belief without someone trying to shovel the benefit of the doubt (which is complete horseshit) on top of it. Without proof for it, religion is nothing but a figure of speech. And this I agree with. Except I think that without proof religion is more like a set of possibly dangerous opinions. Never wrong, never right, but damn are people dead set in stone that theirs are the best. And that was more to the point what I was saying. And I'm not set in my ways that I'm right or that my answer is the best. That is where I also differ from the bulk of christians. But while I admit that I'm not sure, THEY say that they are right because they have the truth! THE FUCKING TRUTH! A truth that they admit they can't fucking prove! But somehow I'M militant for not believing the admittedly unprovable story while the delusional one is NOT militant. Crazy ideas about myths and majick is "normal" while my common sense and/or skepticism makes me out to be some kind of pushy bully for not believing it. That's fucking insane to me.
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Post by Redhunter on Mar 17, 2009 3:08:38 GMT -5
I do this a lot actually. but I like to think that I will reveal my lack of belief in their god to them at some point, an then they will look at me for me and not excuse things because they think I'm christian. It's dishonest to a degree. I realize it is complicated, and some folks in religious areas will react negatively to open atheism, but by the same token things aren't going to change if we continue to hide our brains from those who may just be too stupid to know how to handle it. Also, I think of it this way; what if they didn't give you jesus literature, but white power or right wing or anti-abortion literature? I'm not equating them exactly, but still... if they were earnest and nice people and smiled the whole time, would it be good or bad to speak up? If just to be honest with oneself if nothing else. I'm not hounding or yelling at you by the way, hell, you don't have to say a fucking thing if you don't want to, your story just made me think of how much of a benefit you are doing to them or to yourself by basically pretending to be christian (not correcting them in their assumption). It's basically a lie by omission. I think you assumed a little too much about this interaction. I disagree. I was basically talking out loud about the pros and cons of addressing your atheism. I even started out my response with the admittance of doing it (not admitting it) too.I don't have a lot of contact with my neighbors. This 15-minute casual introduce-yourself conversation is the first and only contact I've had with this couple in the 2 years since I bought this house. Like I implied, it didn't even cross my mind during this conversation that announcing my spiritual identity was warranted. The conversation was about the weather, my house, my alma mater, and Burger King. I never implied that you did anything wrong or shoulda'd you about a damn thing.I don't see atheism as a religion, or even really as a part of my identity. I think religion is silly. I think professional sports are silly. I don't make a point of announcing to everyone the first time I meet them that I think either of those things are silly; it's just not something that occurs to me. Me neither. Anyone who knows me for more than a few days will inevitably find out I'm atheist. It will come up in conversation, or they will ask me straight out when I'm busy daydreaming about llamas and septic tanks or something equally unrelated. So it's not like I'm hiding it. I'm very willing, most people probably think TOO willing, to engage in debate about how silly religion (or professional sports for that matter) is. Same here.But I'm not wearing it on my sleeve either. I think assertively calling attention to the fact that I'm atheist is giving religion too much credit. Just like making a point of saying to everyone you know during an unrelated conversation, "You know, I don't believe in Bigfoot." gives too much credit to Bigfoot-believers. Still agreeing with you. My best weapons against the ridiculousness of theism are indifference, disdain, and leading by example; i.e. by being a real-life embodiment of morality, responsibility, rationality and contentment without the aid of invisible friends. Still on the same page.
Only I mentioned... MENTIONED, not argued... that by letting them assume you are a christian, when you know full well that's what they are thinking about you when you accepted that... whatever the fuck it was that started this whole thing... By quietly accepting that you implied you were christian which IS a lie by omission.
I don't allow folks around me to think I have kids or pets or livestock because I don't have any of them right now. If I said I did, then that person found out that I didn't, they will look at me as a liar, and in the situation you described, it would only reinforce a christians potential stereotype against atheists.
But again I was only speaking aloud and I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't being "militant". Not that it matters if I am or not most times.
for what it's worth, I STILL am not fighting with you.
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rhi
New Member
The day needs my saving expertise!
Posts: 24
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Post by rhi on Mar 17, 2009 9:44:30 GMT -5
Only I mentioned... MENTIONED, not argued... that by letting them assume you are a christian, when you know full well that's what they are thinking about you when you accepted that... whatever the fuck it was that started this whole thing... By quietly accepting that you implied you were christian which IS a lie by omission. I don't allow folks around me to think I have kids or pets or livestock because I don't have any of them right now. If I said I did, then that person found out that I didn't, they will look at me as a liar, and in the situation you described, it would only reinforce a christians potential stereotype against atheists. But again I was only speaking aloud and I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't being "militant". Not that it matters if I am or not most times. for what it's worth, I STILL am not fighting with you. [/color][/quote] I know that sweetie. I am just very defensive about my honesty; it is one of the strongest qualities I have and an implication that I deliberately lied to someone, even by omission, hits a nerve. I don't "know full well" that that's what they are thinking about me. I assume it, but that's after the fact and it's based on my stereotype of Christians anyway, which is just as inaccurate as any other stereotype. And if they do assume it, without having asked me, onus is on them anyway. I realize atheism is not as visible as it should be. I just don't think bringing it up unsolicited in casual, impersonal interactions is the way to go about making us visible. Gay pride demonstrations don't cure homophobia. Being confronted personally by a gay person and challenged, doesn't cure homophobia. Personal relationships with good people who later turn out to be gay, do. Walking over to their door, knocking, and saying "Hey by the way, we're near-strangers, but I don't want you to think I'm Christian. I'm not." will only feel intrusive and reinforce any negative stereotypes they already have of "militant" atheists. But if they get to know me gradually, and then find out I'm atheist, it might make them think twice about it. So in other words, your original concern that I'm not doing them or myself any favors by failing to announce my atheism, is what I disagree with. We've actually been discussing this very issue in my local atheist/agnostic organization. We're getting into charity work and there was a 3-day debate on whether we should do Adopt-A-Highway, because on the one hand, they'd put up a big sign advertising that atheists do in fact volunteer, but on the other hand, this is Billy Graham country and some of the pessimists in the group worried that drivers would harrass us while we were working or deliberately throw extra trash on our stretch of road. Personally I thought, "bring it on!"
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Post by Redhunter on Mar 18, 2009 4:23:10 GMT -5
Only I mentioned... MENTIONED, not argued... that by letting them assume you are a christian, when you know full well that's what they are thinking about you when you accepted that... whatever the fuck it was that started this whole thing... By quietly accepting that you implied you were christian which IS a lie by omission. I don't allow folks around me to think I have kids or pets or livestock because I don't have any of them right now. If I said I did, then that person found out that I didn't, they will look at me as a liar, and in the situation you described, it would only reinforce a christians potential stereotype against atheists. But again I was only speaking aloud and I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't being "militant". Not that it matters if I am or not most times. for what it's worth, I STILL am not fighting with you. [/color][/quote] I know that sweetie. I am just very defensive about my honesty; it is one of the strongest qualities I have and an implication that I deliberately lied to someone, even by omission, hits a nerve. I don't "know full well" that that's what they are thinking about me. I assume it, but that's after the fact and it's based on my stereotype of Christians anyway, which is just as inaccurate as any other stereotype. And if they do assume it, without having asked me, onus is on them anyway. Know full well, are 99% sure, potayto/potahto. I think it seemed obvious that they saw you as "one of us, one of us!", I get the same thing around here. In fact it's often the only reason someone will speak to me if they see me in public! They ASSUME I'm christian before I say anything most times. But anyway, I think it's safe to say they saw your smiling and accepting of christian lit. as at least an assumption that you guys are christian.
But it IS being a tad dishonest, and I do the same thing. I don't go out of my way to tell folks I'm atheist either. If anything I encourage that myth a bit, but I realize I'm using dishonesty--and we're talking more like self-preservation/white lie dishonesty here--by doing so. I pride myself on my honesty too, but I left my ex-wife's christian bumper stickers on the car because I figure, "Hey, it can't hurt!" EVERYONE around here is christian and those who aren't are muslim. Then there are us atheists. I already stick out like a sore bum, I need that added "heathen" attention like a bag on my hip.
But sorry, it really is a smidge dishonest. And as I stated, I do it too, and I'm wondering aloud the implications of doing so, if I am accusing you of anything I'm admittedly applying it to myself as well. I realize atheism is not as visible as it should be. I just don't think bringing it up unsolicited in casual, impersonal interactions is the way to go about making us visible. Gay pride demonstrations don't cure homophobia. Being confronted personally by a gay person and challenged, doesn't cure homophobia. Personal relationships with good people who later turn out to be gay, do. Walking over to their door, knocking, and saying "Hey by the way, we're near-strangers, but I don't want you to think I'm Christian. I'm not." will only feel intrusive and reinforce any negative stereotypes they already have of "militant" atheists. This was the type of dialogue I was looking for. But if they get to know me gradually, and then find out I'm atheist, it might make them think twice about it. So in other words, your original concern that I'm not doing them or myself any favors by failing to announce my atheism, is what I disagree with. But I see both sides of this and I see benefits and drawbacks to each of them. That was exactly what I was trying to get you to talk about. I'm not saying either is right OR wrong, but shades of both. I was not offering an alternative either. More like musing.We've actually been discussing this very issue in my local atheist/agnostic organization. We're getting into charity work and there was a 3-day debate on whether we should do Adopt-A-Highway, because on the one hand, they'd put up a big sign advertising that atheists do in fact volunteer, but on the other hand, this is Billy Graham country and some of the pessimists in the group worried that drivers would harrass us while we were working or deliberately throw extra trash on our stretch of road. Personally I thought, "bring it on!" [/quote] See, to me taht is a bit different though.
it's nobody's business what, if anything, I believe.
if you guys are getting together and doing volunteer work under the banner of atheism/agnosticism, why the hell WOULDN'T you do it?
That is the gray part. I don't need to, nor do I trumpet my thoughts on religion unless it is specifically brought up. If someone persitst, I will tell them I don't want to hear it because I don't believe.
I know that times I have brought it up has turned out to be a nightmare of them wanting to share jesus with me, and thne I have to explain my background, that I USED to believe and then hear how I probably hadn't ever really believed to begin with, and that my atheism means someone did something to drive me away from god, or that I blame god for some bad incident and now I hate him and all sorts of shit I'm sure you've dealt with before too. I honestly do not want that each time I run into someone. It's exhausting.
Especially if I get down to it with this person and I find out they only know what they overheard in church and are spouting new testament bible verses like I've never fucking heard them before. It does suck, but sometimes not being honest or open with others and by association to the sleight of hand, myself as well is unsettling too. I just wondered what your thoughts were, I wasn't judging you.
BTW, I left the two crucifixes and dream catcher up on my rear view mirror in my car too, but if you look close, I reversed the crosses so they hang upside down but they blend into the feathers on the dreamcatcher. So I "admit" it in my own way sometimes, but I don't want to be singled out by some drunken rednecks some night either so I play my cards close to the vest.
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