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Post by kristine on Aug 8, 2009 15:05:48 GMT -5
Yeah, I like his version too, I just don't like that they can't be separated from the whole 'your-soul-is-damned-so-you-will-do-evil' religious crap - but hey, nothing's perfect. I don't really get that vibe from them...I can see where you're coming from, but Butcher emphasizes that vampires are predators first and foremost. The reason many of their actions strike humans as "evil" is because they're done in pursuit of food or the ability to gain food easier. There's no denying that Bianca (the first vampire character introduced in the series) is evil, or at least becomes so between the first and third books, but most of the other vampire characters act from pragmatism above all else. White court are tied to demons the first time they have sex (or I assume, scare someone or make someone commit suicide) and are drawn into the kill, they are tied to EVIL. On top of all that, there's the fact that there's an organization of Red Court victims that have banded together to resist the call of burgeoning vampirism, and it wouldn't surprise me if Butcher eventually came out with something similar for the Black Court. Since White Court vampires can only be born, not made, they aren't as big an issue on that front, but Thomas is shown to resist his hunger and remain as "human" as possible right up until "Turn Coat". Doh! I'm not reading that one till it comes out in paperback - And there would be nothing for them to 'resist' if the state itself was not inherently evil. They also got burnt when they touched 'The Fist of God' - there are definitely 'good' and 'evil' by nature beings in that universe, and the only truly, compassionate, 'good' ones, seem to be Christians - so maybe it's just that I find Butcher's lack of Fundies unbelievable.
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Post by peanutfan on Aug 8, 2009 15:36:34 GMT -5
Sorry! I should have put in a spoiler alert.
And like I said, I don't see vampirism in Dresden Files as evil so much as predatory. The Red Court victims who are resisting turning completely are doing it because they don't want to become predators who feed on people. It's like someone fighting an addiction...they get cravings that they have to resist, even though the cravings aren't inherently good or evil.
As for the "Fist of God" thing...like I said, I see it from Dresden's perspective: they're affected by faith, of any kind. Dresden has all the faith of a toadstool in God, but he can hold off vampires with his faith in magic. By the same token, we've only seen glimpses of how other religions are handled, but Shiro said in "Death Rites" that he was really only a Christian by default rather than actual belief. On top of that, that Russian Knight is a self-described atheist. Clearly, faith and Christianity aren't synonymous in Dresden's world.
As for fundies, read the Dresden Files story "The Warrior", in the book "Mean Streets."
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Post by schizophonic on Aug 9, 2009 17:15:39 GMT -5
Sorry! I should have put in a spoiler alert. And like I said, I don't see vampirism in Dresden Files as evil so much as predatory. The Red Court victims who are resisting turning completely are doing it because they don't want to become predators who feed on people. It's like someone fighting an addiction...they get cravings that they have to resist, even though the cravings aren't inherently good or evil. As for the "Fist of God" thing...like I said, I see it from Dresden's perspective: they're affected by faith, of any kind. Dresden has all the faith of a toadstool in God, but he can hold off vampires with his faith in magic. By the same token, we've only seen glimpses of how other religions are handled, but Shiro said in "Death Rites" that he was really only a Christian by default rather than actual belief. On top of that, that Russian Knight is a self-described atheist. Clearly, faith and Christianity aren't synonymous in Dresden's world. As for fundies, read the Dresden Files story "The Warrior", in the book "Mean Streets." Dresden is clear on faith working regardless of the source. His Pentacle is a symbol of magic. He could no more turn a Vampire with a Cross than he could drain the ocean. Simply put, the symbol does correlate to the belief, and it works on more than just Vampires. Which is cool. It's also been done before, a lot of times. It's so unoriginal, it's one of the premises behind True Faith in oWoD, and they're about as original as your average direct to DVD action flick.1 Still, "original" does not equal "good," nor does "unoriginal" equal bad. Not automatically, at least. I also love the three courts (Or four, I remember them alluding to a Jade Court, but haven't read the last book or two to know if they've shown up or are just Furlings)
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Post by wmdkitty on Aug 9, 2009 17:19:06 GMT -5
I think I need to read the Dresden Files.
Anyone got a list of the books?
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Post by kristine on Aug 9, 2009 17:58:18 GMT -5
I think I need to read the Dresden Files. Anyone got a list of the books? the first one is Storm Front - if you decide you like that one then the list should be in the front of the book - or ask one of us fans and we will tell you (I don't remember the order of the rest of the list off hand)
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Post by schizophonic on Aug 9, 2009 18:42:49 GMT -5
I think I need to read the Dresden Files. Anyone got a list of the books? the first one is Storm Front - if you decide you like that one then the list should be in the front of the book - or ask one of us fans and we will tell you (I don't remember the order of the rest of the list off hand) Fool Moon is the next in the series, and is my absolute least favorite. Keeping in mind, of course, I have not read the last two, so if one of them is actually worse, I don't know yet. A bad DF book is still good overall. Just bad compared to the rest of the series. Almost everyone I know who's read them lists FM as their least favorite, though.
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Post by kristine on Aug 9, 2009 19:40:58 GMT -5
A bad DF book is still good overall. Just bad compared to the rest of the series. Almost everyone I know who's read them lists FM as their least favorite, though. - had some important stuff happen in it though and introduced a lot of recurring characters.
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Post by schizophonic on Aug 9, 2009 19:44:52 GMT -5
And it filled out the character of Marcone pretty well.
It's important, yeah, but it's not exactly my favorite read.
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Post by wmdkitty on Aug 9, 2009 22:46:12 GMT -5
I think I need to read the Dresden Files. Anyone got a list of the books? the first one is Storm Front - if you decide you like that one then the list should be in the front of the book - or ask one of us fans and we will tell you (I don't remember the order of the rest of the list off hand) Kthx, I'm going to the library tomorrow.
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Post by anti-nonsense on Aug 10, 2009 3:39:50 GMT -5
I've thought of that exact same thing, although I have to say it makes me a little uncomfortable as I don't *like* the portrayal of science as "faith". Although I guess in the Dresenverse with all the supernatural stuff running around, it's excusable. And it would admittedly be amusing to see a vampire get scared off with Origin of Species.
yes I'm a Dresden fan (although I've only fully read the first book and part of Fool Moon) It's still awesome and I've heard it gets even more awesome later on.
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Post by peanutfan on Aug 10, 2009 17:20:23 GMT -5
The level of awesome in Jim Butcher's writing can only be measured in light-years.
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Post by Damen on Aug 11, 2009 0:26:13 GMT -5
The list of Dresden Files books stands thus:
01: Storm Front 02: Fool Moon 03: Grave Peril 04: Summer Knight 05: Death Masks 06: Blood Rites 07: Dead Beat 08: Proven Guilty 09: White Night 10: Small Favor 11: Turn Coat
This doesn't take in to account the comic books or the short stories.
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Post by schizophonic on Aug 11, 2009 0:26:47 GMT -5
I hear Summer Knight can do the Kessel Run in under 12 Parsecs.
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Post by meshakhad on Aug 24, 2009 12:02:36 GMT -5
I recently had a partial idea for a vampire novel. The focus wasn't so much on the exact abilities and weaknesses of vampires, as on the good/evil aspect.
The idea was that vampires naturally have strong predatory instincts. Most vampires end up giving in to their instincts, or even embracing them, becoming the evil monsters of legend. Some, however, do not.
The story would focus on the latter, an order of good vampires (probably allied with other creatures). They live off animal blood, and generally fight evil. What would distinguish them is their range of personalities.
There would be the angsty types, but they would be in the minority. The majority would have the same personalities as they did when they were human (including a nerdy character who is a fan of Buffy). A sizeable minority would change somewhat, deliberately adopting "dark avenger" personas. Their leaders would be older vampires, mostly badass old guys. I imagined the head of their organization being a medieval knight, possibly a crusader, who was turned into a vampire but was able to reign in his killing instincts through faith.
The reason the "loneliness of immortality" doesn't apply here is that these guys have each other. They have a society of their own. And just to have a contrast with the vampire v. werewolf feud so common these days, if there are werewolves in this world, several of them would be part of the Order.
Ideally, the rest of the world would also be fairly diverse. You'd have traditional vampire clans, along with lone vamps. Some would be capable of dealing with the Order; others would be its enemies. They would have relations with werewolf packs.
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Post by Ranger Joe on Aug 24, 2009 12:20:31 GMT -5
28 Days of Night For the Motherfucking Win
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