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Post by valsa on Sept 23, 2009 15:19:30 GMT -5
He who holds the Hammer..  Oh Thor, never change. Is that from the Marvel Adventures comics? I’ve been meaning to pick the first one up forever but my local bookstore doesn’t have it ;_; Lots of people on disability and ssi would pick there sickness over not getting the check or settlement they are expecting. Ah yes, what's having to stay hooked up for hours at a time, 3 days a week, to a dialysis machine compared to a whole whopping $700 a month from the government? I would have to find out her name for those of you who are screaming LIAR. I’m not going to scream “liar” but I would indeed like her name and find out what her actual job is (is she a professor? If yes, a professor of what? What kind of training does she have?) *rages* Urge… to kill… rising… I say someone should try putting 5 nails through his head. They should actually go all the way through with him, because he’s got nothing up there. What questions haven't i answered? You still have not answered the follow-up question about medications that I've asked two times already now. |
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Post by catanon on Sept 23, 2009 16:33:31 GMT -5
lightmelon my petition is actually against the chief of police and will probably get me a lot of reprisal but he has done a lot of bad since he has been in office. Namely denying some the equal protection of the law. While placing others above the law. lonelocust i see where you are coming from with the scientific method being different than when the earth was deemed flat however i must still disagree. I own a plumbing company and the work i see that was done twenty years ago and even longer and shorter amounts of time do not meet up to what i concider good plumbing. Now in twenty years from now someone will be looking at my work and say Man they sure didn't know how to plumb back then. Everything changes. And throwing in evolution in your example of things not rationally disputed was way wrong. There is nothing that proves evolution. Where is the missing link between man and ape? There is none and will never be found because it doesn't exist. i will go to the website you referred and look at it though. m52nickerson just as the scientists were chastised for bringing the truth to light so am i for bringing it to light here. Building upon your statement of hypothesis and possibility on things not yet proven by science, If this world was created by God and all that is in it and around it, and He sent His Son to die on the cross so that you can gain forgiveness for your sins if this was possible and the bible is right wouldn't you want to know more about it. From where i stand in a biblical view you need to look at the possibilities. As far as believing for your childs miracle and not taking him to the hospital that is wrong. Although i am against long term use of medications and use of doctors i am not against an emergency. Doctors have saved many lives that would have not been saved before. Which is good. However when we rely upon the doctors for our long term care then it becomes relying on them and not God. Ok where are these hospitals located? Do you have staff access and will we be able to interview patients without staff interference? Even if a patient gets violent? You know what? It's becoming quite obvious that you haven't even looked at most of our sources. Seriously, I adressed a bunch of your questions and you completely ignored it. Don't even try to give me some convoluted "but I did!", because we've given you the information, we've given you every chance to look at the evidence, but you just ignore it and continue to spout your garbage. Frankly, I'm getting bored. |
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 23, 2009 22:26:03 GMT -5
lonelocust
as to your direct question? I am questioning the validity of any scientists claiming evolution or anything that refutes God.
A direct link to apes would be millions of years of improvements to this world not just the improvements we have done over the last 6000 years or so. Also it would be millions of years of population and sites that are so big and diverse between each stage of evolution that there is no question that we evolved from an ape. The bible says that we were made in Gods image God aint no monkey.
The reason why these differ from medicine is God has given us the ability to harness these energies. No where did it say in the bible that if you be lazy and do nothing i will keep you warm and feed and take care of you just like welfare. Medicine God has given us His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross, and by His stripes we are healed. This is past tense. It has already happened. He was prophesied about in the old testament and fulfilled those prophesies in the new testament. He died and rose again on the third day. Not only does the bible tell us about it but there was a letter written by one of the roman soldiers as well who witnessed it. Also He was seen by many afterward.
I will contact the first option and see where it leads. Is there anyone in particular you would like to see get help?
And no this is not just to prove a point but to show the power of God is still alive and well today just like it was thousands of years ago when He created us
( I know that we will here the millions of years thing but i believe in the gap theory look it up it is very interesting ).
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 23, 2009 22:33:18 GMT -5
valsa
i have answered the best i can on the medicine question and will sift through here and see if i can find any follow up one if anyone finds it before i get done readin all the info i was asked to read please post it. Thank you.
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 23, 2009 22:42:43 GMT -5
CatAnon This is not the only site i am dealing with I still have ministerial duties elsewhere on the internet and at home. I spend as much time as i can in each avenue but obviously i am not ten people as you all are. Yes i have God on my side but still this is hard to read every thing that everyone throws at me and still handle my other obligations. For the most part we all have our beliefs and are unshakable. i will as read as much as possible but highly doubt that i will change my mind just because it is written in some text book saying differently. There are many books on both sides of these discussions. has anyone read all the papers and studies and books contradicting there beliefs?
I am doing the best i can please i am only human.
catanon if i had answered every single post answering my questions or a comment on mine i would be here all night. I do not mean to hurt anyones feelings here. On the contrary i am trying to do my best to address everything.
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 23, 2009 23:13:24 GMT -5
alright i have skimmed through the vast amount of information refered to and am still not convinced about evolution from apes to humans what you see if at all anything is probably inbred mutations. deformities within a single family. Everyone knows that if you inbreed your offspring will be retarded and then deformed. This proves nothing at all. Like i said if for millions of years we evolved there would a vast amount of evidence not seen. There would be more evidence other than this could be this way or maybe this happened. There are no maybe's in Gods creations. The bible points us back to adam and eve. It is for the most part a history of us. The human race. If you search the bible you will find so many rights in it. Saying the bible is true and we were created around 6000 years or so then the population that we have coincides with this.
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 23, 2009 23:27:31 GMT -5
Valsa ok i have found what you are refering to and i apologize for not commenting on it i remember reading it and thinking i need to answer this but probably got busy answering others.
If an illness is caused by demons and they want you farther away from God and relying on it instead of God they will in some cases back off and let you feel like everything is ok and God didn't even help. However God is in the healing business not the prolonged agony business and these who are suffering can be healed.
Also As stated in revelations the Anti Christ will come and perform miracles and deceive many. Demons can perform miracles as well or what seem to be miracles. Give for example fortune telling. How do you think a fortune teller gets there information? Familiar spirits are demons that follow a family line due to curses and all and know exactly what uncle jimbob ate for breakfast every day and is able to relay this to the fortune teller. This is also an example of so called past life experiences. A person has demons in them that can give first hand knowledge of what that person did. These spirits can also travel to others where they are not related and do the same thing.
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 24, 2009 0:26:38 GMT -5
lonelocust as to your direct question? I am questioning the validity of any scientists claiming evolution or anything that refutes God. So you're QUESTIONING it. On what basis do you reject the evidence given? You reject it based on the Bible, not on evidence. Well, I'm going to take "improvements" to mean "becoming less like other apes and more like modern humans". And we have that. I listed the dozens of species that we have seen, ranging from about 6-7 million years in age to a few hundred thousand years in age. All of those are way outside the scope of the last 6000 years. Yep, we have that, too. You choose to ignore what I answered for you in good faith. Congratulations. I am completely aware of what the Bible says. Though it doesn't address whether God is a monkey. Since humans are allegedly made in God's image, and we ARE monkeys, I put forth that the Bible by extension says that God is a monkey. :-9 (I am mostly joking around here.) But God didn't, in your worldview, give us the ability to make medicine? Again, HOW is it different? Nowhere in the Bible does it say to not take medicine. HOW is it different to utilize the findings of science in one way but not another? *I* don't purify my water, or personally capture natural gas or maintain power plants. I rely on "man" aka cooperative society for that, both the prior decades and centuries of technological development and the current building and maintenance work. Exactly the same is true of medication. I didn't personally develop it or test it, and I don't work in the labs that produce it and put it into bottles for me. What's the difference? Citation (chapter and verse) for where the Bible says that this has anything to do with physical or mental illness rather than sin. I am again completely aware of what the Bible says, and how protestant evangelicals interpret it. I don't believe it, but I know exactly what it says. Show me in the Bible where it applies this to medicine and not spiritual "sin". I didn't suggest those places; that was mnicholson (I think). And I (and I'm sure they) don't believe for a second that you can help anyone there. I am familiar with the Gap Theory. I used to be a fundamentalist Christian myself. And old earth creationism and the gap theory were the in vogue creationism of the day in my youth. It seems that young earth creationism is now the style for the creationists, as it's made a political overtaking of old earth creationism. Though people are going more OEC as "intelligent design" is the current attempted political powerhouse of creationism, and it's more in line with OEC. So, to reiterate, I completely understand WHAT you beliveve. You will have to give me evidence for it if you want me to take it seriously. -_|aura |
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 24, 2009 0:39:53 GMT -5
Again I'm not CatAnon, but I'm answering. Again, NO NO NO NO NO! My beliefs are completely shakeable. They must be. They are based on evidence and reasoning, and new evidence can come to light. I have no Beliefs with a capital B; I go with the evidence. That's fine. What I want to point out is that if you keep claiming there is no evidence after being presented with the evidence, then you are actively and knowingly lying. If you say "I see what the evidence is, but I choose not to believe it because I believe the Bible without question", then you are being honest. And while I still am not really OK with that, it is honest. Saying "We've never found a missing link" or whatever is just pure dishonesty. Saying "I don't accept the many many many found links that scientists have been studying for more than a century, because it contradicts my unshakeable beliefs" is honest. Yes there are. And some are based in evidence and logic, and the others are based in religion. All viewpoints are not equal. I do not go on the power of authority but on the power of evidence. Well, there are exactly 0 papers and studies that meet scientific peer-reviewed criteria or have stood the test of time and new evidence that contradict the generalities of evolutionary theory (though there have been many over a century and a half that have allowed expansion, modification, and improvement of evolutionary theory), whereas there are literally hundreds of thousands that support it. However, I believe I HAVE read essentially all of the works that attempt to dispute it. I am extremely well-read, and again I used to be a fundie myself. I do for one understand and will try to be sympathetic to that fact. However, when you spend time repeating the gospel and evangelical theology that everyone here already knows (but doesn't believe) when you could be answering a question, you're using the same amount of time. Skip the gospel (we already know it. You believe man is full of sin, Jesus came to earth and died so that those sins could be forgiven, man needs to repent from his sins and ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus into his heart so that we can go to heaven and not hell. We understand. You don't need to say it again, unless you want to present EVIDENCE by our standards that it is true. Repetition is not evidence.) and spend that time answering a question. Aaanyway... I know you are just human, just like us. What I ask is that you be honest - you do not understand evolutionary theory, and you do not accept the mounds of evidence for it, and furthermore NO EVIDENCE WOULD CONVINCE YOU that evolution has happened or is happening. Just be honest about that. Say you reject evolution and you reject the evidence for it BECAUSE it contradicts what you believe the Bible says. I will accept that even if I disapprove of it, because it is honest. Don't tell us there is no evidence, because that is not true. I know that evidence extremely well, and I am not going to believe you. You are being knowingly dishonest by saying there is no evidence when the truth is that to you there can BE no evidence. Or you know, just ignore the evolution thing altogether; it is irrelevant. |
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 24, 2009 2:43:06 GMT -5
Valsa ok i have found what you are refering to and i apologize for not commenting on it i remember reading it and thinking i need to answer this but probably got busy answering others. If an illness is caused by demons and they want you farther away from God and relying on it instead of God they will in some cases back off and let you feel like everything is ok and God didn't even help. However God is in the healing business not the prolonged agony business and these who are suffering can be healed. Also As stated in revelations the Anti Christ will come and perform miracles and deceive many. Demons can perform miracles as well or what seem to be miracles. Give for example fortune telling. How do you think a fortune teller gets there information? Familiar spirits are demons that follow a family line due to curses and all and know exactly what uncle jimbob ate for breakfast every day and is able to relay this to the fortune teller. This is also an example of so called past life experiences. A person has demons in them that can give first hand knowledge of what that person did. These spirits can also travel to others where they are not related and do the same thing. oh hohhohoho, that's NOT true. I read tarot cards quite fluently and do astrology charts as a favorite hobby, since I was 12. There's no demons involved- only a good eye for patterns and a really good knowledge of how tarot works......no demons T_T Astrology involves a lot of math and history and people observation....no demons >_> Unless they're an Aries-heavy chart. Because they are demons personified. (I'M JOKING HERE LOL) |
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 24, 2009 8:14:04 GMT -5
lonelocust
Isaiah 53:5, I pet. 2:24, mathew 8:17, Mthew:27:26,, ephesians 1:7, 1 peter 1:18-19, Revelations 1:5, Also if you study the greek and hebrew there are many definitions in both languages for the same word and similar words of heal healing healeth,,,,,,,,,,,, One is to mend another to heal another physician , repair, thoroughly make whole, a medicine, deliverance, health, remedy, healing, sound ( as in mind) wholesome, yielding something saved, aid, victory, prosperity, help, salvation and so on There are twenty eight i believe.
As far as beliefs wouldn't you feel better to say i know this is what happened and no matter what is said to contradict it i believe in the one true God. Who in the beginning created this wonderful earth we call home. And after doing so ( 6000 years ago ) wanted companionship so he made us in his likeness. Not only human but also in three just like Him body soul and spirit, He is Father God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
as far as evolution i reject it based on the bible.
Lightmelon
hello and how are you i am sorry to say that tarot is demonic. along with all witchcraft. At the age of twelve what happened to get you into tarot? i'm still working on going back and commenting on all your things i think it was you and valsa i was going to comment on. God only knows. this thread has taken a few turns but that is quite alright maybe it is best to set a foundation rather tha assume the foundation that is there is plyable.
It is hard to remember i am dealing with people who do not believe the basics of the bible which is creationism, without that belief how will you believe Jesus came to this world to save you?
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 24, 2009 9:26:22 GMT -5
lonelocust Isaiah 53:5, I pet. 2:24, mathew 8:17, Mthew:27:26,, ephesians 1:7, 1 peter 1:18-19, Revelations 1:5, I take these to be using the terms metaphorically referring to a spiritual healing, not a healing of physical or mental ailments (though at the time when it was written, of course they didn't realize some mental illnesses have physical causes). Do you speak ancient Greek and Hebrew? Just wondering. Synonyms certainly exist, but I don't see what that has to do with talking about literal healing. The only places I see talking about literal healing are pretty clear about it, such as Jesus healing the blind, and are told in stories like that, not in part and parcel with using the terms for healing metaphorically to talk about the spirit as well as implicitly literally. (To be clear, I don't think Jesus actually healed the blind - in fact, I'm agnostic as to whether a real man on which the New Testament stories are based existed at all - but I am talking about what the Bible says. If it said what you think it does I still wouldn't believe it, but I don't think it says that.) Anyway, thank you for clarifying where your idea came from. It seems like it's talking about something else entirely to me, but I wondered where you even got that from. But, let's give that it is saying god heals one literally - including from such things as viruses and chemical brain deficiencies - why doesn't that apply to dysentery from unclean water, or hypothermia? Why isn't water filtration and heating just a stop-gap until you have enough faith to not be effected by bacteria or cold? I'm confused by your pronoun use. Are you asking would *I* rather say that? If so, then no. I want to say what is true and accurate to the best of our ability to understand it with the tools that gave us all the wonders of modern science, which is not that. If you actually mean YOU would rather say that, then whatevs. I don't personally approve of saying things or trying to believe them because you *want* to or would "feel better" saying it. But that is your choice, and at least saying that you believe it because it makes you feel better (though I personally don't get how that works; I am incapable of believing things or not because I WANT to), and that's honest. Again, I don't personally approve, but I think if you're being honest then you're not disservicing other human beings. But you don't KNOW it, you believe it based on faith and not evidence. That is not knowing. You JUST advocated the gap theory, which is old earth creationism, and now you're saying he'd just finished the world 6000 years ago? Did you hear me when I said we all understand your theology on this topic just fine, and there's no need to repeat it? Are you just trying to be contrarian, or did you miss that? Let me say it again, I USED TO BE A FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN. I understand what you believe re: salvation. OK, thank you for the honesty. Again, I don't personally approve of your reason for rejection, but if you are telling the truth about it, you are not wronging *me*, like you are if you dishonestly claim that your rejection is based on science and not the Bible. |
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Mordeak
Junior Member
Official Filthiest Frood of FSTDT (and he forgot his towel!)
Narf
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Post by Mordeak on Sept 24, 2009 9:36:37 GMT -5
as far as evolution i reject it based on the bible. Now this would be a good argument if the bible has some empirical evidence to support it. Don't forget Nautical, you're talking to people who don't like fairy tales dictating what to believe. You'll need some rock solid proof. i am sorry to say that tarot is demonic. along with all witchcraft. Judging Nautical? Naughty, naughty boy. Hell for you. this thread has taken a few turns but that is quite alright maybe it is best to set a foundation rather tha assume the foundation that is there is plyable. Rather a ply-able foundation then a solid foundation build on quicksand. It is hard to remember i am dealing with people who do not believe the basics of the bible which is creationism, without that belief how will you believe Jesus came to this world to save you? You are assuming that we are going to believe in this jesus guy. He may have existed, who knows. And don't tell me you know. You better show me some evidence you've met him (outside of your imagination) to support such a claim. Sorry for the slight mocking tone of this post but you are starting to get on my nerves. I just don't like people who are trying to take down a tree with a dull butter knife. |
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 24, 2009 9:37:20 GMT -5
Also, you realize that lots and lots and lots of people believe that Jesus came to the world to save them, but believe that the way God created life was via the mechanism of evolution right? Just like the way he created the sun and stars was via the mechanism of gravity and nuclear fusion. I get that you don't believe that, and you're not going to no matter what, and I'm not going to bother to argue about that anymore unless you making any further dishonest statements that you don't believe it for a reason other than the Bible, but it is simply a fact that MANY people believe that Jesus is the son of the one God who is the creator of the universe who came to save them from their sins AND accept the historical fact and scientific principals of evolution.
But yeah, you guys are always terrible at assuming corollaries to your beliefs as foundations to everyone's beliefs. Lightmellon believes in lots of things that I don't (or at least that I only believe in metaphorically and not at all literally), but she wouldn't start a conversation with me knowing that I'm an atheist with "Well since we know that the goddess is incarnate in the astral plane, we can obviously conclude that..." and I wouldn't start a conversation with her knowing she has non-materialistic beliefs with "Well since we know any claim of a spiritual realm is completely bogus..." We might be willing to have conversations with each other about those things, but I think we'd both be willing to outline why we believe certain things as a base.
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 24, 2009 10:31:34 GMT -5
lonelocust
we can debate healing until we are both blue in the face. i have heard of many healings. Testimonies from people at church and so on. Why don't we just tweek this conversation to add in what i would call Gods healings and include miracles witnessed by doctors and the world and have no explanation as to why someone would still be alive or had made it through what they made it through even when the doctors gave up.
If modern science would prove we came from frogs tomorrow would you switch your beliefs or how about the scientists that say we came from fish. Cmon now
i still advocate the gap theory and i was speaking about the timeline between adam and eve and now i could be off a couple thousand years but i believe that is what it comes down to.
You may understand salvation but do not understand creation
mordeak i am not judging i am just making a statement based on many years of dealing with demonic influence on my part and all who came before me.
Lonelocust those who believe in Christ and believe in evolution are riding the fence you can't believe in Christ without believing the bible which states man was made in Gods image. You can't believe one thing and not the other. God created the heavens and the earth.
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