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Post by Thejebusfire on Sept 17, 2009 0:15:11 GMT -5
I don't like having people sit shoulder to shoulder with me. This is probably because of all the times I spent sitting in the lunch room alone.
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Post by valsa on Sept 17, 2009 0:42:21 GMT -5
Slightly off point here, but...the smell and taste of eggs is disgusting ._. I mean, there's no other food I CAN'T stomach other than eggs. Ugh. Eggs are only good as an ingredient. By themselves, they're icky. But when combined with other stuff, they turn into cake. Delicious cake. *shifty eyes* I guess I’m the only egg-lover here. I love scrambled eggs like whoa. Darkfire, you are right about the delicious cake, though I think I’ve heard of vegans who use some kind of tofu (silken?) in place of eggs in baking. And I can get chocolate silken tofu at my local grocery store. Chocolate cake with chocolate frosting, made with chocolate tofu? Sign me up for that shit. I’ll have a heart attack when I’m done eating it, but it’ll be totally worth it. Not to butt into the conversation or anything (even though I totally am) but I remember some of this from my Wiccan/Pagan days and, iirc, the statues aren’t actually doing anything themselves. They’re simply to show respect and honor to the patron gods and goddesses. Kind of like all those crosses in churches, or when people have figurines or pictures of "Jesus" in their houses (note: said pictures of "Jesus" will usually be a whole lot whiter than if they were to depict the biblical Jesus) Also, you’re encouraged (at least in the books I had) to try and remain as naturalistic as possible in creating your alter (which is in line with the emphasis on nature throughout the religion) so a lot of stuff people put on their alters comes from outside and doesn’t cost anything. Granted, I used to use stuff that I did buy, but the vast majority of it wasn't specifically related to Wicca. I had candles that I bought from my local grocery store and a caldron that was actually, I believe, supposed to be a potpourri holder. I wish I’d been alone in my lunch room. Back in high school, I eventually ended up spending my entire lunch period hiding in one of the school’s stairwells to get away from people. Then I got dragged into the principal’s office for it by a little Korean lady who throws shoes at people.
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 17, 2009 1:03:26 GMT -5
Nautical - I work overnights, and so probably will not be online and answering at the same time you are unless you are online in the middle of the night US time.
My mother does not have DID. Would you like to try again? I'll give you at least two more guesses. Perhaps you would before your next guess like to clarify what you meant by "tell you what your mother sees and hears"? Also please answer my questions:
*If you are certain you know what my mother sees and hears, and you are wrong, are you willing to believe it is mental illness and not demonic posession? *Do you believe what science has discovered about neurochemistry? Do you believe that our brains function on chemicals at all? *If pharmaceuticals completely remove the effects of mental illness, does that mean that the mental illness was a result of neurochemical issues, that pharmaceuticals can destroy/repress/cast out demons, or some other option?
I am essentially completely convinced that you are not cold reading ON PURPOSE. You're doing far worse than an actual cold-reader would, even via email, having not even taken into account the information presented directly to you in previous messages.
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 17, 2009 1:08:32 GMT -5
valsa Yeah, there's some definite additional challenges for my coldreading bot. Some of that comes from body language reading, but some fairly effective cold-readers aren't even very good at that (though utter masters like Darren Brown use it a lot). One big initial challenge will be that cold-readers often pick up at least appearance-related items. Specific ethnicities have extremely common occurrences of different names, for example, or people's apparent ages can inform probably ages for who close to them might have died, which is used a lot in the "medium" style coldreading (a la John Edward). At least the first conceptual run may have an initial questionnaire, since the purpose is more a proof of concept than an attempt to convince anyone that the bot is actually psychic. However, taking it into non-medium ground and general psychic/personality-reading territory, I might be able to steer away from that, using items such as very generic personality traits or things like those included in Nautical's questionnaire regarding probable past experiences, and have it re-mention similar items with the most likely being the most common mentioned.
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 17, 2009 1:18:48 GMT -5
Silken tofu makes a reasonable egg substitute.
I personally am fine with killing non-sentient things in as painless of a way possible for the good of sentient things, but I understand the reasoning behind being not OK with that. (Really, I would accept an anti-abortion sentiment as actually being defensible within a consistent moral framework if there was also an opposition to killing any animal of any age for any reason, but I've never met a forced-birth advocate who gave a shit about killing animals at all.) I am not OK with treating any animal poorly while they ARE living, and as such will only buy free-range chickens (though they do still kill males hatched for new egg-layers) for eggs or free-range meat if I have a need to buy it for others.
I'm sure we can tangent off into definitions of sentience and epistemology regarding what is and is not sentient. I am willing to have this discussion if you want to, or to drop the subject if it upsets you.
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 17, 2009 7:21:26 GMT -5
THE CAKE IS A LIE! ...okay, now that that's out of my system, I can say vegan desserts are yummy :3 I believe animals, for the most part (referring to the more advanced of the animal kingdom here and some insects like bees) can feel, can plan, can think, and are therefore sentient. I mean, it's in my opinion, like trying to compare a normal human to a retarded child- the basic things are there, the child is just not intelligent. There's a big difference in between being sentient and just being well, kinda dumb. Also, we really can't assume we are too special. The only reason we are advanced as we currently are is because we lucked out on the evolutionary lottery and developed the ability to talk, and opposiable thumbs. Thinking about it, we are really the only creatures besides dolphins that would really need to evolve such things to survive- humans are pretty weak physically compared to say a bear. Why would something need to talk when it could just bite your neck open? Lol, anyways....I've also wondered about whether or not some other species will evolve to this point and if humans are still around at that point (we are currently trying to destroy ourselves on a daily basis T_T) how humanity will handle it. Anyways I see humans no more important than animals. And Nautical, I said before my statutes really don't exist to contain a god/goddess or that I'm not worshiping said statues OR gods/goddesses- I'm reminding myself of the archetypes so I can apply those strengths to my life. Also, there is a belief that when any large amount of people believe in one thing, it kinda 'gives birth' to it on the astral plane. That it exists, just on a spiritual level. I've always fancied the idea, so maybe saying those ancient names and words could have an effect on my spells or wishes but I'm not gonna hold my breath. But to answer your inquiry: I live in a studio apartment, one big living room, a kitchen, and a seperate room for the bathroom, so in total, one big room, one little one. I have 1 altar, on a little handmade (not by me) table that has retractable legs. It has a image of the mother goddess woven into it on the wood. It has basics: candles, seashells to represent the element of water, a snail my Grandma gave me (reminds me of me lol) a quartz crystal, a little iron cauldron, a athame with hearts engraved in it, a tiny vase with flowers in it and my two statues of the goddesses like I said before...a little ocarina with a painted parrot on it, a deer horn (collected from the ground, not taken from a live one) to represent the God of the Hunt...and a few other little treasures. I have goddess memorabilia and books from all religions all over my home. I've studied religions for years. Yes, even two Bibles and the gnostic gospels/ dead sea scrolls. I have a wall of herbs in my kitchen for spellmaking, and a small box of oils. Incense burners everywhere. Um....thats about all I can think of that you may have wanted to know lol. And a giant pokemon poster on my closet door! Hell yeah! (I got it in a promotional sale lollll) I even have a familiar Aren't I poster stereotype for a lil witch. What can I say, my fat Siamese is my best friend. Only cat that'll well, let you do ANYTHING with him (hug him, drag him, hold him upside down) he'll eat all his veggies (kid loves green beans)and if he ever sees my crying will come and lie with me and lick the tears off my face. So sweet /coos. He won't leave till I've stopped. Okay I know the point of this thread isn't to coo about my cat. Bite me.
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 17, 2009 7:38:15 GMT -5
vana i think it was you that asked about vegetarianism. I have always had the belief that it is up to the person on what they want to eat. i did the whole vegetarian thing before when i was in prison ( 4 years for armed robberies ). The good thing about it was everybody would give me there vegetables and i would get fuller than most. worked out good for me. and yes i am pentecostal. I believe in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are alive today. I believe that casting out demons is part of the gifts of healing. plus also i really enjoy doing it and helping people with deep rooted pain and hurt from things they have gone through. it is amazing when someone who has gone through something traumatic and has hurt for many many years get healed.
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 17, 2009 7:43:41 GMT -5
I think it's really sweet that you want to help all of us Nautical I respect you. I just think maybe we need to just acknowledge that we have religious differences and that my choices may not be so bad. All in all, I'd like to say I'm a good person even though I've had a hard life, and thats all that matters, right? And I've suffered injustice from Christianity but if it makes you happy then it's definitely not bad, so.....maybe we're not too different! You've had it rough to and you seem good. We're not different at all. I honestly think that if there was a thing such as demons (which I'll still say I don't believe in) they aren't in us. And vana is just following whats natural to her, and she's very nice too, and everyone else here has thier own little thing going on. I see nothing wrong with the world ^-^
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 17, 2009 7:47:27 GMT -5
valsa it is funny that some will reject the fact of one true God and will accept the many gods thing. These many gods are actually demons getting people to worship them instead of God. The statues are empty shells but they do keep you in bondage. A person might as well be locked in side of them Because that is there prison.
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 17, 2009 8:12:42 GMT -5
lonelocust i am telling you right now that your mother has DID. And she has demons that is all. I did describe some of what she sees. She sees demons and she sees thoughs who hurt her. some of her personalities are in rooms inside like yours and can't get out. i can help get them out and into a safe place where they can't be harmed anymore. Alot of times they will just see darkness and that can be dealt with also. It is usually pretty simplistic on helping people with this. You did not comment on your DID though. This is also known as multiple personality disorder if the DID name threw you off. the schizophrenia is a misdiagnosis. Are you or your mom willing to have a few minute conversation over the phone to prove this. and by the way i am not a cold reader. the list will point out to me different accesses the devil may have to someones life. Like a child who is minding his own business and playing with his dog in the park throwing a frisbee and then all of a sudden watches his father get mugged and killed that is very traumatic and will be an access for a demon of hate, and/or many others. as far as the medicine? i am not against someone using the medicine to stave off the devils until they can get help. But the medicine is not a cure. It is a bondage for the rest of your life. Jesus Christ is the cure.
In your system are rooms and i would like for you to try to see if you can open a door. DO NOT TRY TO OPEN A LOCKED DOOR. Also are you able to see the fountain yet? There may be a false fountain the devil has located there but there is a good one as well. i will let you describe it to. Like i said i am no psychic but i know what is in these worlds. and i know how to navigate through them to get you freedom, and your mom as well.
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 17, 2009 8:28:31 GMT -5
@melon I hold a more rigorous definition of sentience, but I know a lot of people who have about the same thing as you that they call "sentience", and I respect that it's very self-consistent.
To be clear, I don't think a human who is severely retarded is sentient. This horrifies a lot of people, but I feel that horror is a gut reaction and not a head reaction, when coming from people who don't hold all animals to be sentient. My definition includes:
*The sentient being is aware of itself and able to think about its awareness. *The sentient being is aware that other beings are sentient and is able to intellectually empathise *The sentient being via being aware of awareness can abstract the idea of non-awareness (i.e. contemplate death). *The sentient being is able to abstract the idea of cause and effect, *The sentient being is able to abstract the idea of past and future.
While it's essentially impossible to measure these directly, I think indications of sentience include: *Displays of altruism (I could tangent on this for hours by itself) *Distinct individual personalities in individuals exposed to the same rearing environments *Displays of creativity *Displays of emotion other than fear, rage, and calm.
I wouldn't claim to be infallible in identifying these traits, and would tend on the side of cation. It's also certainly not all or nothing - a newborn child really isn't sentient. A one-year-old isn't all the way there, but they are partially there. A six year old sometimes doesn't actually get what death is, or the idea of things that happened before they were born. Etc, etc.
For moral reasons, I would never be able to kill for my sustenance or convenience with a clear conscience other primates, elephants, octopi and squids, cetaceans, or the smarter sorts of birds. I feel pretty confident that chickens and cows generally do not display an indication of self-awareness or the signs I think indicate it. I do think that the "higher" animals all have a consciousness capable of feeling pain (unlike for example many insects which have a purely nerve-to-reflex "pain" response) and fear (which is incredibly basic), and as such believe that while their deaths are fairly meaningless, their experience of pain is not.
So, I think we are special, but it's not human DNA that makes us special, certainly.
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Post by nautical999 on Sept 17, 2009 8:32:08 GMT -5
lightmelon
i think everybody here for the most part are nice people. I have enjoyed this discussion.
I wasn't talking about the rooms in your house where you live but the ones inside your mind. The ones where the hurt hides. and is forced to stay. Do you ever here children talking or screaming? or act a very young age and think why the heck am i acting like a five year old. (more than just throwing a fit over something).
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 17, 2009 9:05:12 GMT -5
Nautical - Well, I see me up "late" is you up "early", so we can communicate in semi-real-time after all. :-)
My mother has no diagnosis or symptoms of DID (and yes, I know what that is; I have an extremely informed layman's knowledge of psychology including abnormal psychology, partially from academic interest and partially from the fact that I have one disruptive psychiatric illness myself, which you have not yet gotten correctly). She exhibits no alternate personalities. She exhibits the symptoms of schizophrenia as identifiable by the layman from an understanding of those symptoms and as diagnosed by professionals. You have thus far not *accurately* described any of what she sees as described by her, other than that she "sees demons", which I had already said in the message to which you initially responded; you introduced no information that was a)not already presented by me and b)accurate. I have heard from her very detailed descriptions of what the demons she has seen look like and what she has described them as doing. I have also heard detailed descriptions of some of her other delusions (which you would not believe to be delusions). She also has at least one other major mental illness. I have not mentioned what that is, other than that it is not DID (MPD is an outdated term), so you can take another swing at it. To recap: *She does see demons; I already said that. Would you like to describe them? *She does not hallucinate about "[those] who have hurt her." She does get delusions regarding people, but not hallucinations. (Edit: to be clear, I mean in your terminology that she does not "see" the people that have hurt her. She gets ideas into her head about things that other people do and why they do so, but no visions or voices or thinking she has been at events that indicate these things, etc. She just pushes people's actions that she disagrees with into rationalizations that fit with her preconceived notions about the world. Not like anyone else around here...)
I also do not have DID or any vague indications thereof. So you can also have another swing at guessing what illness I do have. (To be fair, I actually most likely also exhibit psychological abnormalities that would be like a "weak" version of one of my mother's illnesses, but to an extent that is not unpleasant and certainly not disruptive of my life or happiness.)
I have purposefully extremely limited contact with my mother. She is additionally in contact with enough people who share her delusions and validate her hallucinations via religion that I would not be the enabler of letting you contact her as well. (Though, since you have identical paradigms other than her being willing to take medication and realizing that it works, there's some vague possibility you do know her; she does frequent the internet.) I will contemplate having a telephone conversation with you myself. While it would certainly tickle my curiosity, I will need to at the least arrange a way that will not put you in possession of my personal information via telephone number.
I'm quite convinced you're not cold-reading ME, on purpose. Ironically you seem to be utilizing the techniques of cold reading on yourself (and, with no intention by you, additionally on the people who desire to believe you). To be clear these include: putting out a lot of information, and taking the very low percentage of correct information as proof that you are "right". This would include the long list of very common or completely universal items on your questionairre. If someone answers yes to anything (which EVERYONE will), you take this as confirmation that there is a "door open for a demon to enter" or what have you. Another example would be the information you put forth about my mother. You said she has DID (untrue), sees demons (true, which I had already said), sees people who have hurt her in the past (false). You are taking the fact that you said correctly that she sees demons (even though I already gave you this information) as confirmation that you know what is going on with my mother, even that was the ONLY piece of information that you had about her already, and the only piece of information that you got right in describing to me what she sees.
I don't know what "list" you are talking about. Do you mean your questionnaire? What does that have to do with anything? What does you knowing what door the demons used to get into have to do with your claim that you could tell me exactly what my mother sees, which you have not been able to follow through on? I'm sure you've convinced yourself that what you describe is what she REALLY sees, rather than the things she herself has described to me in detail. But I wonder if you are able to realize that this means you are not at all taking into account the data of what people have told you they see. You have told yourself what they see - maybe sometimes you have told THEM what they see, and if so, I bet some of them DID see it after you told them so.
How, from your point of view, is medicine able to stave off demons? By what mechanism does that work? I will agree to you completely on one point, however - psychiatric medication is lifelong bondage. Just as insulin is lifelong bondage to the diabetic. It does suck, but I feel incredibly privileged for living in this era where the physical evidence and reasoned logic that has brought man out of the dark and into the modern era can provide me the means to keep my brain from turning against itself. That is truly amazing.
Oh, and my mother has Jesus Christ, so if that's what she needs to cure her problem, well that's a big pile of fail. Jesus Christ has done nothing to cure either her schizophrenia or her other affliction which you have not yet identified correctly, whereas SCIENCE! is capable of completely removing the symptoms of one of her illnesses.
Tell me about these alleged rooms and doors and fountain(s). And no, I will not describe them. If you know what is in them and how to navigate them, then you can describe them to me. Again, the technique of the cold-reader is to provide a concept, while the buyer provides the meaning. I believe you are doing this without realizing it; you think you are not doing it at all. If you are not doing it at all, then you don't need me to describe; you can do it yourself. If I live in Albuquerque and you tell me you know all about Albuquerque, how to get around there, and what sort of landmarks it has, then you don't tell me "it is a city, and you will go down roads and make turns to get to a landmark. Now tell me what roads you take and where you turn, and tell me what that landmark is." No, if you REALLY know what's in Albuquerque and what landmark I'm trying to get to, YOU can tell ME about it.
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Post by lonelocust on Sept 17, 2009 9:13:59 GMT -5
Oh also, I have the most absurd super-pants-crapping perfect "door for demons to enter my life", and I am just itching to share it, but I'm trying to not introduce it for everyone's amusement until Nautical and I are mostly done.
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Post by Bezron on Sept 17, 2009 9:28:22 GMT -5
“Humane” to me is killing them as quickly and as pain-free as possible. Being ground up alive is painful and cruel, no matter how quick it is. I actually was thinking about some possible gas-chamber method. However, instead of suffocation, it would use either- 1) some sort of quick, painless poison (does that even exist?) or 2) something to knock the chicks unconscious and then the workers can grind them. I realize those two options aren't as cheap as just chucking them into the grinders awake and alive, but I'm willing to bet that the small rise in cost that would, I'm sure, ultimately be passed onto the consumer wouldn't be all that much. Are there two videos out? I'm pretty sure the one I saw a reference to (you couldn't pay me to actually watch it) was filmed by someone from a group called Mercy for Animals or something (I know it had "Mercy" in the name) Or is that an off-branch of PETA? Sorry, I forgot I had posted in this thread I also love eggs, Valsa. I'm fairly doubtful that quick, painless, poison exists. Not sure they have done that research on chicks yet. I would tend to agree with knocking them out first. However, the point is to get it done quickly and fairly efficiently, because the longer you have to look at that cute little baby chick, the harder it is to kill it. Grinding them up is pretty quick, and fairly guaranteed (again, there are misses, but not nearly as many as activists would have you think). Don't get me wrong, I think it's horrible, but not sure what else could be done. Also, I am not part of the egg industry, and the activists aren't interested in changing it (generally), just shutting it down completely. Kind of like X-tians in that they want to force everyone else to what they believe. I'm pretty sure that Mercy for Animals is an offshoot of PETA. All of the videos I have seen have been attributed to PETA specifically. To keep this thread on track: The "deliverance ministry" model goes like this: 1. convince people that they HAVE demons 2. convince people that they have been delivered from demons 3. profit from lifetime revenue stream from grateful people While I imagine Nautical isn't engaging in this consciously, it is the reality of the design You convince someone that some bad issue in their life is caused by something outside of their control (demons, here), and that you know of a way to fix it. you then go through the steps required to fix the issue for the person (casing out the demons). You then further convince the person that they are open to future issues (demon attacks), but that you can teach them how to protect themselves. You now have a customer for life (in the area of tithes, donations, books, and merch). This is old-school advertising 101. Also know as brand loyalty building in the ad industry.
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