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Post by worlder on Aug 12, 2010 22:08:02 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Hell is about constant guilt. In Hell, you are always seeing the people you hurt, the pain you caused. In Hell, you're always in a dark room, with no need for food or water or sleep. You're just alone with your guilt. That is more of a turn off than fire and brimstone. Because IMO fire is war and in war you can always fight to expel your rage even if victory is impossible. So yeah "fire and brimstone" comes across to me as challenge.
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Post by mechtaur on Aug 12, 2010 23:56:55 GMT -5
I always imagined heaven as a very calm and happy place. You could do almost anything.
But, if I had to imagine hell, it would probably be a more universalist idea. You would have to face what harm you did to others, but it wouldn't be infinite. It would pretty much be equal to whatever you did and then you would be released.
I don't think I could ever wish eternal harm of any kind on anyone.
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Post by DrKilljoy on Aug 13, 2010 12:15:46 GMT -5
But what about sociopaths and the like who don't really feel guilt? It wouldn't be much of a punishment for them.
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Post by mechtaur on Aug 13, 2010 12:47:33 GMT -5
In theory, no, it wouldn't be. But then again, who knows. Eternal torment isn't really going to fix anything either.
EDIT: Actually, defining a punishment at all is very difficult to do.
With this in thought, it would probably have to depend on the person and everthing.
With this in mind though, I still stand by my last pre-edit sentence.
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Post by Sigmaleph on Aug 15, 2010 12:50:46 GMT -5
But what about sociopaths and the like who don't really feel guilt? It wouldn't be much of a punishment for them. One could appeal to omnipotence and say that everyone will be able to feel guilt in hell.
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Post by twingle93 on Aug 21, 2010 19:24:24 GMT -5
I've read quite a few Christian fiction works, and I must say it's not through lack of trying that they can't conceive of heaven, it's just that the average fundamentalist's imagination is pretty sterile. Very rarely are their fantasy or sci-works well-written, but they try.
Even in the Left Behind books, the millenial kingdom and Heaven were sparsely detailed.
The millennial kingdom should have been this awesome situation of remaking the entire world with cool-super powers under the rulership of the most wise and powerful being in the universe and never aging. Instead all it is this sexless, boring world where all the cities got rebuilt exactly as before, computers, phonelines and vehicles were rebuilt exactly as before, and then there might be a minor detail about not-aging or lions and wolves living together, or it being always sunlight. They don't even really get to meet Jesus or interact with him at all, even when he's on Earth ruling from his temple in Jerusalem. They just get to meet famous resurrected figures from the Bible, but they don't have anything new to say. Moses and Samson and David and Noah all just reiterate exactly what it says in the Bible about their lives. Our heroes don't really fly or dematerialize like the fundies of today fantaize about.
Heaven in the Left Behind series consists of throwing your crowns at Jesus' feet, and then listening to stories testifying about how they came to Jesus from every christian who ever lived. They go to New Jerusalem, which is kind of cool, but the only thing of interest in their mansion is simply a globe that lets you go back in time at any point and observe, but that's it.
So heaven is simply talking with uninteresting Bible characters or re-doing the things you were already doing in life. They don't even get to explore the universe or inhabit new worlds, or even fly. Even if those options exist, the characters might not even have the interest or the inclination to go about doing them.
It would be like being immortal and having access to the world's most powerful computer and internet with all the knowledge in the world past, present and future and capabilities possible, and yet you just limit yourself to drawing doddles on the MSpaint, or doing random calculations on the Calculator, or just play minesweeper. That's what heaven is like to the fundies: hearing Bible stories, praising god, and talking about themselves and how they got to that point. Nothing else then what they were already doing while they were on earth.
Another thing that is hardly mentioned are the angels, who are just depicted super-christians. They are pretty much everything a Christian aspires to be: loyal, utterly without doubt, faithful to good, plus they have things like flight and cosmic strength and super-intelligence.
And then these super-beings get regulated to being either teachers, guardians or singers to these simple-minded, childish christians. It reminds me of a quote from Enter the Jaberwock:
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Post by arrowdeath on Aug 22, 2010 3:04:23 GMT -5
I hear in heaven, the TF2 servers never lag. And God prevents all of the facestabs, and kicks all the wall-hackers and aim-botters. In fact, if I had a guarantee that heaven has TF2 servers and that hell did not, I would seriously considering becoming religious again.
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Post by Meshakhad on Aug 22, 2010 11:26:55 GMT -5
I hear in heaven, the TF2 servers never lag. And God prevents all of the facestabs, and kicks all the wall-hackers and aim-botters. In fact, if I had a guarantee that heaven has TF2 servers and that hell did not, I would seriously considering becoming religious again. Hell does has TFC servers. Unfortunately, they are also the ones used by demons. And all the demons cheat. Also in Heaven, Ben and Jerry run their own ice cream stand. Due to the strange behavior of time in heaven, the ice cream stand is always open, even though they only work when they want to, and there is never a line. Also, liberal use of manna means that the ice cream tastes like whatever you want. Needless to say, it is all free.
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Post by The_L on Aug 23, 2010 11:05:28 GMT -5
@twingle9: C. S. Lewis had an interesting conception of Heaven--like Earth, except everything good is there and everything bad is gone. You can explore places that were destroyed ages ago on real-Earth, visit other planets and universes, run as long as you want without getting tired--even run up a waterfall without having to worry about falling or drowning. All the good people you've ever heard of are willing to converse on any subject they know about. It is, essentially, like the best virtual-reality world ever conceived, forever expanding, infinitely pleasant.
That said, I have yet to see any other convincing descriptions of a Heaven that anyone would want to actually stay in for eternity. Lewis, at least, realized that people would eventually want to see new things.
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Post by arrowdeath on Aug 23, 2010 20:23:01 GMT -5
Well, I think I like Mark Twain's logic. Why would God make sex feel so good, yet then forbids it? It does not make sense.
Basically, the angels are all porn stars, and heaven is one massive never-ending orgy where no one ages, gets tired, or anything.
All hail Mark Twain and his ideas.
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Post by matante on Aug 24, 2010 7:32:09 GMT -5
In my heaven, you have suspension of disbelief at will. If you always wanted to know how you'd fare in a zombie apocalypse, you can experience it and it'll feel real until you're done with that scenario. You can live any scenario you want, or trust others to create an adventure for you, and of course you can share your imagination to them as well. Depending on your temperament, it can be comfortable and soothing, or challenging, or full of discovery. You can even choose to live terrible events, if you think that in the long run the experience will make you better. I guess there would be some things you don't control, because while for each person there's an optimal amount of work for a given reward to be happy with it, we instinctively take the shortest route, and a game where you just press a key and it says "you win" isn't fun.
^ Of course that could mean that we're in heaven and picked this life as an adventure, in which case our celestial selves are kinda twisted.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Aug 24, 2010 7:45:40 GMT -5
^ Of course that could mean that we're in heaven and picked this life as an adventure, in which case our celestial selves are kinda twisted. I was just thinking the same thing.
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Post by scienceisgreen on Aug 24, 2010 9:54:02 GMT -5
Frankly I'd prefer a heaven that's a pocket universe of my own creation in which I play God... I'd probably appear as burning bush to a goat herder in the desert for shits and giggles.
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Post by Meshakhad on Aug 24, 2010 10:11:54 GMT -5
@twingle9: C. S. Lewis had an interesting conception of Heaven--like Earth, except everything good is there and everything bad is gone. You can explore places that were destroyed ages ago on real-Earth, visit other planets and universes, run as long as you want without getting tired--even run up a waterfall without having to worry about falling or drowning. All the good people you've ever heard of are willing to converse on any subject they know about. It is, essentially, like the best virtual-reality world ever conceived, forever expanding, infinitely pleasant. That said, I have yet to see any other convincing descriptions of a Heaven that anyone would want to actually stay in for eternity. Lewis, at least, realized that people would eventually want to see new things. This view of heaven is quite similar to mine, and I endorse it.
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Post by arrowdeath on Aug 24, 2010 16:32:38 GMT -5
Frankly I'd prefer a heaven that's a pocket universe of my own creation in which I play God... I'd probably appear as burning bush to a goat herder in the desert for shits and giggles. So heaven is basically Black and White the Game, but better? I approve, because I would do the exact same thing. Then, when I accidentally on purpose manipulated everyone into killing each other, I'd reload my last save and see what new way I can screw things up. ...I'd make a very bad god, now that i think about it.
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