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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 16, 2009 20:46:21 GMT -5
Other forums with the appropriate demographics (mostly places heavy with nerds, such as this joint) occasionally have "Let's Play!" threads, in which someone plays a (video) game and updates on progress regularly, and their fellow forum-goers get to contribute by means of directing the gameplay, offering their insights or suggestions on how to progress. I'd like to run just such a thread.
The game I have in mind, a rather fun strategic sim set during WW2 called Hearts of Iron 2, works pretty well for this. Most countries have to make pretty substantial decisions consistently: should I as Germany spend the second half of 1940 invading Britain and securing the west, or should I launch an early Barbarossa and catch the Russians with their pants down? Or should I help the Japanese against the United States? Should I as Japan focus on smashing the Americans, or should I worry more about the land war in Burma, or should I go after that thorn in my side of an ANZAC-factory, or even throw in with Germany to help them beat the Soviets? What are my priorities as Britain? Might I even quietly help the Germans fight the Soviets? I'm sure Churchill might've found that a possibility worth considering, in the right light.
I'm less interested here in what "the real personalities" would have done because we pretty much know how that turned out. I'm more interested in having fun and making an interesting story of a war that wasn't. Would there be any interest in this sort of thing here? If not, this can quietly fade away. If so... whom shall we guide: Britain, Germany, or Japan?
(I rule out the other Commonwealth Nations because they're individually too small to usually make for much fun in this context, and anyway their troops make up the biggest part of Britain's infantry so they'll see a lot of play in the event of Britain; I rule out the US and the USSR because the game is insanely easy with either; I rule out Italy and France because they are the punching bags of the Axis and the Allies, respectively. I have won with both, but it's not all that much fun overall.)
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Post by Jebediah on Apr 16, 2009 21:04:57 GMT -5
I've never heard of Hearts of Iron, but it sounds like fun.
I vote for guiding Japan. No particular reason.
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Post by szaleniec on Apr 16, 2009 21:14:23 GMT -5
I love Hearts of Iron and its Paradox stablemates. I vote Britain: the British-German alliance against the Soviets that you mention is quite an interesting scenario to explore, though it's one I've never done before. And +1 Exalt for starting this.
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 16, 2009 21:19:14 GMT -5
I can't wait for number 3 to come out in August, but that's neither here nor there...
Anglo-German alliance vs. the Soviets does raise another question: I could probably finagle an alternate scenario, though anything too crazy is implausible simply because of the time involved building it. If there's interest in complete ahistorical, I could detach the Brits from the Allies, set them up in the Axis, and just go from there... it'd be definitely interesting, but it might mess up the events that lead us into WW2 proper. Starting date is 1 Jan 1936, so there's some time there for things to go wonky, either after modifications or on their own.
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Post by szaleniec on Apr 16, 2009 21:42:24 GMT -5
I'm hoping that HoI3 will have better support for counterfactuals out of the box as well as more modding options - as it's to be based on a version of the EU3 engine I'm optimistic.
Of course do whatever you think is necessary not to screw up the game mechanics if we do go the alt-history route. Are you playing with the expansion packs?
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 16, 2009 21:57:20 GMT -5
Yes. I have both Doomsday and Armageddon (cheerily-named, I always thought) installed, which helps a lot with the AI. There's actually a new patch out for Armageddon (1.3), but I don't like a couple of the changes so I'm skipping it.
Next up I'll post an overview of the three powers. I'd like to get at least one more person to weigh in, though if nobody else does by tomorrow afternoon (my time, GMT -7) I'll go ahead and flip a coin for how we'll go since the vote is split.
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 16, 2009 22:53:17 GMT -5
Here's Germany's start position. I'm posting the thumbnail because the full-size pics are 1440x900, which would probably stretch out the thread pretty badly for a lot of people. As you can see in the upper right-hand corner, Germany starts with a very solid industrial base of 142 IC, modified by various things down to 135. By the time war starts, the base is usually grown to about 220-230, and the effective to around 300. Germany's pros include a very powerful doctrinal path that's a world-beater until about 1943, strong industry, a fair pool of manpower (best in Europe outside of the USSR), excellent research teams and generals (best in the game, easily), and a favorable position. Especially if the Nationalists win the Spanish Civil War (which isn't a given), smashing the French in June of 1940 means that she has relatively few positional worries unless something improbable like losing an army group trying to take a strategically unimportant city happens. Germany's cons are headed without question by a weak navy and relatively weak naval doctrine which appropriately favors subs but doesn't do much good for the sort of massive fleet actions necessary to usefully invade some sort of strong island neighbor. This lack exacerbates the fact that Germany's enemies lie pretty much everywhere on Earth, most problematically the US and Canada. Likewise Germany typically ends up burdened with Italy, which, while sometimes a fair distraction for the Brits in the Mediterranean, most often ends up as lots of poorly-defended beaches that let the Allies make landings they couldn't elsewhere. Germany herself has a lot of coastline to defend, especially in occupied France and Norway where nearly every coastal province is a liability. Typical German game plan: build up, smash Poland, smash Denmark/Norway, smash France, smash British Home Isles, smash Soviets, smash US, get smashed because everywhere is German grey, reorganize globe as seems appropriate. Japan's start position isn't great. Her antiquated troops are scattered around, a majority of them on largely irrelevant island chains each requiring extensive convoys to remain supplied, and her industrial base is half of Germany's - about on par with France; the only major power with a smaller industry is Italy. Pros: Japan's stronger than any of her regional competition; China is fragmented into the Nationalists and five or six warlords, Australia and New Zealand combined only have about a third the industry and manpower of Japan, and while the colonial powers (Britain, France, and the Netherlands) might not consider this region the middle of nowhere, they don't feel it's right at the edges, either. The only immediate local threat is the Soviet Union, but like the Tsars of centuries past they look west, not east, and rarely field much this far out. Once things get cooking with Germany, that becomes doubly true. Like Mahan taught, too, Japanese naval domination - they follow the same doctrinal tree as the US, one that rewards carriers and puts them in their rightful place as lords of the ocean - gives the Japanese a substantial strategic and tactical strength of choosing just where and when they fight. Cons: By far the biggest problem Japan faces is that, while none of the local powers match her, her "next door neighbor" to the east is the United States which has about five times her industrial might. Meanwhile, her only really meaningful ally, Germany, almost inevitably gets crushed under the Russian steamroller sometime between 1943-1944 which frees up the Allies to bring their full attention to the Pacific War. Japan *also* suffers from a significant shortage of raw materials to power her industries which, while we're on the subject, are extremely densely concentrated (Tokyo holds nearly a quarter of Japanese industry); a successful invasion of Honshu will pretty much put the Japanese war machine out of business. Typical Japanese game plan: build a few factories and a lot of troops, invade China in mid-1937, smash China ASAP, take a quick breather, then try to hold off the US with a smaller, technologically inferior navy, keep the Germans from getting their asses kicked by the Soviets, defeat the Australians and New Zealanders, conquer Indonesia, and roll through Burma and India all at the same time and with desperately limited resources. It's possible - I've done it - but it's hard. Lots of fun, though. Britain probably has the best starting position of the three powers. Her basic industrial capacity is a respectable 147, though modifiers (mostly a "peacetime" modifier the major democracies have while not at war) drop it to a paltry 74. Pros: As leader of the Allies, Britain has most of the world's industrialized powers at her back: France, Canada, and Australia are probably the principals here, and later on the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, and the US join up. Even before the US gets involved directly, Lend-Lease events quite pleasantly provide supplies and additional industrial capacity for Britain, the Soviet Union, and China on a semi-regular basis. The Home Islands are tough to invade, and Britain still has a global empire which encompasses something like a fifth of the world's population. Her land doctrines aren't the best, and her naval doctrines reward battleships, but she's still a match for all comers. Gibraltar, Malta and Suez give her control of the Mediterranean, though the Italians will still run around in there. Cons: France, basically, tops the list. Superior German numbers, doctrine, technology, and bring-run-by-a-ruthless-bastardness prove overwhelming to French individual bravery and incompetent leadership, so if France hasn't fallen by September '40 either the Germans are broken or you're the best player ever. Second, Britain has a global empire which encompasses something like a fifth of the world population. This makes *protecting* said empire something of a problem. Also, while the Commonwealth nations are useful in the extreme (I love Canadian expeditionary forces, because I can count on them being useful instead of, say, Hungarian) they're also scattered around all over which makes getting their soldiers to various fronts a bit of a trick. Also South Africa occasionally drops out of the war, which apparently nearly happened in real life. Britain has three major fronts to worry about: Europe, Africa, and Southeast Asia, and all of them are against separate foes which tends to spread one's supply lines a bit thin. Typical British strategy: praying, while unhelpful, at least feels good. Not much else about a British game does until '43 at the earliest. Almost everything is reactive for awhile, because the Germans have the intiative and British technology simply isn't enough to stop them for several years. It's possible to preserve Norway, but this may actually help the Germans in the long run because they'll have that many more soldiers for the main fight instead of pinned down in the frozen socialist north. British strategy mostly revolves around hanging on to Singapore and Hong Kong, putting together a line in Burma, securing North Africa, and harassing the Axis until either the Soviets break the back of the Germans or the Yanks distract the Japanese enough for you to make advances on either front. As was the role of Britain in the real World War 2, your finest hour is nothing less than holding the line against brutal dictatorships which, for a time, are holding all the cards.
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Post by Jebediah on Apr 17, 2009 11:28:09 GMT -5
I still go with Japan. It seems like it would be the most difficult to win with Japan, but I think we can do it.
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Pwnzerfaust
New Member
Arbiter of all things arbitrary
Posts: 41
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Post by Pwnzerfaust on Apr 17, 2009 11:42:34 GMT -5
I'd vote Germany, but everyone plays as Germany or USA. Britain would be a fun thing to see, I think.
Love HoI, btw. Play it all the time.
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Post by Jebediah on Apr 17, 2009 12:52:09 GMT -5
You guys are making me want to buy the game.
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 17, 2009 12:58:51 GMT -5
Since of the three participants two are HoI vets and the other wants to see Japan, we'll go with Japan for this game. I will, I think, start messing with things to put together an Anglo-German defeat in World War I start, though it'll be pretty barebones. That'll be an option for the next run, if we reach that point.
I play on a unique difficulty setting, which for this game will give a fifty percent bonus in industry, manpower, resources, and research and a ten percent bonus in unit organization to all Axis, Comintern, and Allied nations (Japan not technically counting as a member of the Axis), and a twenty percent bonus to industry, manpower, and resources to all non-human neutrals (meaning nations that aren't part of the big three alliances). While this will help Manchukuo a little bit, it'll help China more. It should be an interesting war.
I'm also making a slight modification to the savegame file and letting Germany properly reinforce her armies, which should make Barbarossa much more interesting.
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 17, 2009 13:45:51 GMT -5
Pay no attention to the graphical glitches on the right and bottom of these pictures. It's a result of the hack used to change the game's resolution. There's a way around it, but I forgot to take care of that. I'll do it for the next game Anyway, here's a picture of the sitting cabinet. Each man provides some kind of effect, sometimes good and sometimes bad, on my economy or troops. Anyone but the Head of Government and the Head of State can be changed freely; those two are only changed by event. Sometimes, though, there isn't anyone else for other positions. In the lower right corner, you can see my governmental sliders. Every year, it is possible to move on slider one click in either direction. I've gone ahead and moved one slider toward Hawk Lobby, since that slider makes producing things faster and cheaper. Events, such as the 2-26 coup that comes up on 26 February 1936, can change things a fair bit. I'm open to suggestions on how to move the sliders, but most nations have one "ideal" position - for Japan, it'd be full hawk lobby, full interventionism, full standing army, full central planning. Full authoritarian would help too for freely declaring war, but it's not as crucial. The intelligence screen. The only point of concern here is that there are 18 spies in Japan. These aren't a huge worry, but since spies can assassinate, cause partisan uprisings, delay production or research, and generally mess things up, it's a good idea to purge them. Sadly, this is an expensive task, and Japan has a bit of a trouble doing it. It's nevertheless a possibility, and I'll leave it up to you guys how much priority is put into it. A picture of the production screen. Consumer goods is higher than the minimum because the minimum describes what is necessary (a percentage of one's total industry, modified by sliders and cabinet ministers) to keep dissent in one's country from increasing. Since research costs money, and consumer goods produce money, this is about the minimum setting to keep my money growing (albeit very slowly: just 0.12 per day). At the moment I'm not putting anything into modernizing the army (mostly 1918 infantry, though it is possible to make them better, stronger, faster - we have the technology) or restoring divisions to full strength because, basically, this looks cleaner for decision making. What are the broad strokes here? You can see I'm building four factories, which will boost base industrial capacity to 90 in November and until then take 20 IC. Other than that, there remains 28 unallocated IC. Shall I build more infantry? Each division costs 4.6 IC for 69 days, meaning that I can build six (barely) at a time for about eighteen months before the Chinese war normally starts, which is about eight runs or 48 additional infantry divisions. Definitely very helpful. Unfortunately it means that my navy, my airforce, and my outdated divisions will suffer a bit from the lack of attention. I can also worry about updating my navy, much of which is antiquated, or expanding my airforce. Or spread things around. The good news is that technology and ministers will eventually start pumping up my effective IC, so I'll eventually have some more to spend on other things. Just... probably not in time for the Chinese war, which is the imminent conflict. Finally the technology screen. Every technology has an attached "historical year" date, and researching before that causes some penalties. It can be worth it, and I actually do it a lot, but more than about a year out means that every day yields just, like, two percent of what it would otherwise. Every tech team has a basic value (6 for Mitsui) as well as specialties; every tech has five parts each with a value and a field of relevance. Pair up tech team specialties with a tech's fields of relevance and you get results much faster - a correct pairing doubles the team's value for researching that portion. Basic Machine Tools will give me a 5% IC boost, and can be followed by two more iterations each with the same benefit. Mechanized agriculture improves manpower growth by 5% as well, which is always a significant concern for tiny Japan. Nakajima's working on a new model of interceptor aircraft, because, while the Chinese don't field much in the way of planes, it's a 1937 airplane tech and I'm going to need it eventually. Operational Destruction Doctrine is one that benefits tactical bombers, which I prefer to dive bombers because they have better range, and which eventually leads to the techs that beef up fighters and interceptors. Finally, cavalry divisions lead to motorized divisions which lead to mechanized divisions, very useful despite Japan not having much expertise in researching them, but are useful on their own simply because they move twice as fast as infantry. They aren't tanks by any means, but for a nation like Japan they make a tolerable substitute. Again, I'm open to suggestions and questions on any of this.
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Post by Jebediah on Apr 17, 2009 16:59:13 GMT -5
The intelligence screen. The only point of concern here is that there are 18 spies in Japan. These aren't a huge worry, but since spies can assassinate, cause partisan uprisings, delay production or research, and generally mess things up, it's a good idea to purge them. Sadly, this is an expensive task, and Japan has a bit of a trouble doing it. It's nevertheless a possibility, and I'll leave it up to you guys how much priority is put into it. I say you leave it alone for now. If the spies become more of a problem later, then something can be done. Sounds good. How about spreading things around, but leaning more towards the infantry? Questions: Are you taking turns with the other countries? How long in real time does it take for a year or a day to go by in game time?
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 17, 2009 20:01:04 GMT -5
Questions: Are you taking turns with the other countries? The game is all real-time, though it allows pausing (thankfully). This makes fighting a war a lot more interesting because both sides are going simultaneously and you're pretty blind without a decent tech edge in decryption. Running full speed without many interruptions, as typically happens through '36, it'll take maybe ten or fifteen minutes to get through a whole year. Fighting against the Soviets as the Germans in 1942? Even getting from April to November (the campaigning season in Russia) can take hours. A day passes in I'd guess a second or so at the maximum speed. A lot of people play on slower speeds than that, especially during wartime.
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Post by Jebediah on Apr 17, 2009 20:36:40 GMT -5
Okay, it makes more sense now. I don't play these types of games, so in my head I was imagining a game similar to Heroes of Might and Magic, and I was confusing myself.
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