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Post by Vene on May 12, 2009 22:32:31 GMT -5
Okay, about the hormones, yes, having the wrong ones does cause distress. It does cause mental trauma. The quality of life of transsexuals is improved due to hormone therapy. That's plenty of reason for it as far as I'm concerned. linkSimilar studies have been done on srs, the actual surgery performed, showing it is effective at alleviating the problem (link). Transsexuality is recognized in the DSM, it's most definitely a real disorder. Oriet's comparison to depression is a valid one. You're essentially saying that it's no big deal that genitals and the brain don't match, just like suggesting that clinical depression is simply something that can be gotten over.
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Post by schizophonic on May 12, 2009 23:16:40 GMT -5
I don't care if people do that surgery, but I honestly don't see a serious need for it, I mean your sexual organs aren't a disease that need to be "treated." It's really easy to say that when you're on the safe side of the fence. Still, the psychiatric and medical communities accept it as a series issue, and I just noted the mental anguish that goes along with it. I don't know a nice way to say this, so I'm just going to be blunt. The more important point here is that you are taking the same sort of approach to transexuality a lot of fundies take to other science, like evolution, biology, and homosexuality. How is saying this isn't necessary any different than dismissing gays as some lifestyle choice? Whether or not you oppose SRS, you are taking a real and serious issue several of us are facing and dismissing it along those lines as unnecessary.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 12, 2009 23:39:05 GMT -5
I don't care if people do that surgery, but I honestly don't see a serious need for it, I mean your sexual organs aren't a disease that need to be "treated." I don't know a nice way to say this, so I'm just going to be blunt. The more important point here is that you are taking the same sort of approach to transexuality a lot of fundies take to other science, like evolution, biology, and homosexuality. I don't know how to say this, so I'm going to be blunt. The more important point here is that you are using the same tactic that a lot of fundies take to other science: you're making an assertion without evidence. If you want to convince me of anything, you'll explain the science behind it, because that's all that matters to me. I already said I didn't care if people had that surgery, I don't disapprove of people who do, I don't discriminate against or hate or dislike people who do. I'm not afraid of or uncomfortable around people who do. What I said was I wasn't certain that type of surgery was serious or necessary, and comparing it to life-saving operations might not have been the best comparison (hell, I don't think that comparing the need to treat depression to a life-saving operation is a valid comparison either, and depression runs in my family-I've had suicidal thoughts since the 5th grade and I'm finally on medication because nothing else seemed to work). So if you want to make your argument then back it up with scientific evidence and correct me if you think what I say isn't supported by science. The first thing you should do is clarify the hormone thing, which I don't understand. In order to understand Vene's link about why SRS is necessary I'd have to understand the problem, which I don't.
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Post by Vene on May 13, 2009 20:50:02 GMT -5
DevilsChaplain, it is nobody's job here to educate you on how the endocrine system works. Seriously, if you want to be part of a discussion it's common courtesy to at least attempt to educate yourself about a subject first. This is as good of a place as any to start. Maybe even read wikipedia's page on transsexuality. I normally try to avoid suggesting wiki as it's not always the most reliable source, but if you don't understand the peer review stuff I provided, then I don't have much choice. The endocrine system is very complex. Gender is very complex. Biology in general is very complex. Step away from the discussion, read up on transsexuality, ready up on hormones. Don't expect us to do your homework for you.
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Post by xaria on May 13, 2009 21:09:22 GMT -5
its the equivelant of the surgeries that seperate siamese twins or correct cleft lips. But aren't those for serious health concerns? yes. Got it in one.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 13, 2009 21:13:51 GMT -5
DevilsChaplain, it is nobody's job here to educate you on how the endocrine system works. Seriously, if you want to be part of a discussion it's common courtesy to at least attempt to educate yourself about a subject first. This is as good of a place as any to start. Maybe even read wikipedia's page on transsexuality. I normally try to avoid suggesting wiki as it's not always the most reliable source, but if you don't understand the peer review stuff I provided, then I don't have much choice. The endocrine system is very complex. Gender is very complex. Biology in general is very complex. Step away from the discussion, read up on transsexuality, ready up on hormones. Don't expect us to do your homework for you. Or perhaps you shouldn't just expect me to understand some supposed hormone problem which supposedly requires SRS (which it might not for all I know). Quite frankly, I don't care either way. Just don't tell me it's necessary and then follow up with a pitiful cop-out like that "it's not my job to educate you" line.
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Post by Vene on May 13, 2009 21:24:03 GMT -5
Gee, wouldn't it have been nice if I had provided you a couple of peer review articles about the subject? Oh wait, I fucking did. I can't educate those unwilling to learn.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 13, 2009 21:28:27 GMT -5
Gee, wouldn't it have been nice if I had provided you a couple of peer review articles about the subject? Oh wait, I fucking did. I can't educate those unwilling to learn. Your problem was that you gave short articles which stated that SRS was necessary but didn't delve into the hormonal problems. I can't be educated by those who post shitty links.
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Post by Magnizeal on May 13, 2009 21:30:42 GMT -5
DevilsChaplain, it is nobody's job here to educate you on how the endocrine system works. Seriously, if you want to be part of a discussion it's common courtesy to at least attempt to educate yourself about a subject first. This is as good of a place as any to start. Maybe even read wikipedia's page on transsexuality. I normally try to avoid suggesting wiki as it's not always the most reliable source, but if you don't understand the peer review stuff I provided, then I don't have much choice. The endocrine system is very complex. Gender is very complex. Biology in general is very complex. Step away from the discussion, read up on transsexuality, ready up on hormones. Don't expect us to do your homework for you. Or perhaps you shouldn't just expect me to understand some supposed hormone problem which supposedly requires SRS (which it might not for all I know). Quite frankly, I don't care either way. Just don't tell me it's necessary and then follow up with a pitiful cop-out like that "it's not my job to educate you" line. How's this: How would you feel if your body was female. (Going by your little male symbol, I'm assuming you identify as male.) Nothing else was female, you're still you, but your body has a vagina and breasts. Oh, and you've got a lot more estrogen in your system. Would you be okay with that? Or would you attempt to fix the problem by blocking estrogen, taking testosterone, and possibly even seeking surgery to make your physical body male? Oh, and while you're at it, stop being so condescending. You don't know more than the transsexuals on the board. Really, why are you so resistant to looking stuff up? I find the endocrine system quite fascinating, even if I can't understand most of it. For example, I just found out that all estrogens are aromatized from testosterone. Quite interesting.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 13, 2009 22:09:52 GMT -5
Or perhaps you shouldn't just expect me to understand some supposed hormone problem which supposedly requires SRS (which it might not for all I know). Quite frankly, I don't care either way. Just don't tell me it's necessary and then follow up with a pitiful cop-out like that "it's not my job to educate you" line. Well, if I don't understand the severity of the problem, which no one here seems to adequately address, then I suppose I wouldn't know. I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm not trying to be offensive. I may have come off as both on this thread and if I have, I apologize. If it is a gross oversimplification to say that trannsexuality is simply wanting your sex to match your gender, however, then I would prefer the person disagreeing with me to give links which are more than just an overview of an article on the subject, and which doesn't address my questions. But on the thread on whether or not homosexuality is a choice, in defending the fact that it is genetic, I posted full-length articles to back that up for people who believed it might be a choice. However, it's also not simply that I don't want to "educate myself", but rather I've been searching for articles on trannsexuality and SRS which didn't pan out. However, upon searching for articles on gender dysphoria I may have found something. At any rate, instead of making an assertion I would prefer if people used a scientific study (not some shitty links with overviews of studies and whatnot) to clear up misconceptions. Oriet & Xaria: I apologize if it sounded as though I was trivializing your problems. I suffer from genetic depression, and I was suicidal from 5th grade until college when I finally took the initiative to see a therapist and take medication. I don't want to compare my experiences to yours, but the comparison was made between depression and gender dysphoria. I don't think treating my depression is as urgent as treating someone with a cleft palate (which could kill a person in their infancy), and wasn't sure if SRS was as urgent as that either. I don't know, I don't suffer from gender dysphoria or anything else like that. But that was the initial cause of my confusion. I like the both of you, honestly I do, and I don't want any hostility between us here. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, I support transsexual rights, and I'm not some the sort of person who tries to discriminate against transsexuals. The confusion came about due to the biology of it, and nothing more.
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Post by Oriet on May 13, 2009 22:30:18 GMT -5
To start with, there is very little academic literature and studies regarding this. This is, in large part, due to transsexuality being such a social taboo, and the viewpoints of those who are not trans friendly, or are even full out transphobic, preventing such studies from taking place. Especially considering the lack of scientific funding throughout the last few decades, the last one especially, it's no wonder there's such a dearth of information on neurological endocrinology. Note that while this means there is a lack of definitive proof on the benefits of both HRT (Hormone Replacement Thereapy) and SRS (Sexual Reassignment/Reconstruction Surgery) for the patients mental and physical health, it also means there is no information showing that it is detrimental. Also, to add in the problem of giving solid sources is that most peer-reviewed article, where the bulk of the information lays, is not freely available beyond the abstract. Now, beyond what Vene has already posted, I also found this: From here: And from here: Sadly this is about as much as you're going to get out of the scientific community because there is still so much contention against those who are refuting that it is even a problem.
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Post by Oriet on May 13, 2009 22:35:29 GMT -5
At any rate, instead of making an assertion I would prefer if people used a scientific study (not some shitty links with overviews of studies and whatnot) to clear up misconceptions. The excerpts being given are from the scientific studies. The reason you cannot read it in it's entirety is because that requires a fee (I'm not sure if it's per article, or a length of time at the places that provide the texts).
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Post by devilschaplain2 on May 13, 2009 22:45:25 GMT -5
At any rate, instead of making an assertion I would prefer if people used a scientific study (not some shitty links with overviews of studies and whatnot) to clear up misconceptions. The excerpts being given are from the scientific studies. The reason you cannot read it in it's entirety is because that requires a fee (I'm not sure if it's per article, or a length of time at the places that provide the texts). Yeah, and not being able to read the whole thing presents a bit of a problem. But thank you for the information you presented, Oriet
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Post by xaria on May 14, 2009 6:07:36 GMT -5
i know that the science (such as it is) that delves into trans things backs up our claim that we're born with a brain of one sex and body of another (im pretty sure that one day it'll be seen as a sort of intersex)
but even if there was no evidence, why couldnt you just take our word for it? how would you react to someone who thought homosexuality was a choice, not as valid as hetrosexuality and refused to change their mind until gay people showed them proof? most straight people take gay/ bi peoples word for their sexuality. why not the same with trans peoples gender?
there are problems, the closest thing we have to a 'cure' is hormones and surgery. a lot of other things were tried and they ended up in people being maimed, brain damaged, made worse or dying. if there was ANY other way to deal with transsexuals then we wouldnt be allowed surgery because its such a counter-intuitive way to deal with an issue that at first glance would appear to be a simple mental problem.
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libertyprime
Junior Member
Hey, it was acceptable in the '80s.
Posts: 58
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Post by libertyprime on May 14, 2009 7:21:01 GMT -5
last night on countdown with keith olbermann, he had michael musto on and they talked about the released news that 'queen' prejean had breast implants and mr musto used it as an oppertunity to go on about exactly how 'fake' she is- she had her penis removed, adams apple shaved and an all over wax. how very cheap that a gay man has to get laughs out of a homophobe by making her out to be trans. way to attack your opponant by kicking an uninvolved and even smaller minority than yourself. stay classy musto and olbermann, im disappointed. allowing your guest to be transphobic to get jokes out of homophobia and you didnt say anything about it... i'v had it with trans people being considred *fake*. fuck you both olbermann and musto. y so srs? It's not like 2 guys on a crappy show effect you in any way.
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