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Post by Art Vandelay on Aug 29, 2011 4:37:31 GMT -5
As someone on the outside looking in, can I just say (again) how weird the sanctification and cannonisation of the US "Founding Fathers" looks to everyone else? Definitely. I swear, the amount of times I've seen Americans base an argument around the idea that the founders would've supported it, you'd think they were somehow infallible. |
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Khris
Full Member
Looks older than they are
Posts: 225
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Post by Khris on Aug 29, 2011 4:40:04 GMT -5
may as well be hell if we keep it up we may end up like The Imperium of Man where saying foul of them is treason and punishable by death
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Post by itachirumon on Aug 29, 2011 4:42:59 GMT -5
may as well be hell if we keep it up we may end up like The Imperium of Man where saying foul of them is treason and punishable by death George Washington wasn't flawless? Jefferson owned slaves? Franklin was kinda a playa? OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!!! OFF WITH IT I SAY! YOUR BODY SHALL BURN BENEATH PLESEANTVILLE FOREVER! NO ONE IS SAFE! |
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 29, 2011 4:45:13 GMT -5
may as well be hell if we keep it up we may end up like The Imperium of Man where saying foul of them is treason and punishable by death Again, as an outsider looking in? It does sort of seem that way some times. In Australia, 2 of our "Founding Fathers" (not that I've ever heard them refered to as such) are Henry Parkes and Edmund Barton. Be buggered if I could name any others though. And I have never, ever heard an Aussie politician cite either of them to garner support for a proposal or policy. |
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 29, 2011 4:51:49 GMT -5
As someone on the outside looking in, can I just say (again) how weird the sanctification and cannonisation of the US "Founding Fathers" looks to everyone else? Definitely. I swear, the amount of times I've seen Americans base an argument around the idea that the founders would've supported it, you'd think they were somehow infallible. I seem to recall once having a conversation at CF with a guy who was arguing that the Declaration of Independence and the US constitution should be officially made the last book of the Bible. I don't THINK thats a very mainstream idea, but sometimes, one wonders... |
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Post by Art Vandelay on Aug 29, 2011 4:53:22 GMT -5
Definitely. I swear, the amount of times I've seen Americans base an argument around the idea that the founders would've supported it, you'd think they were somehow infallible. I seem to recall once having a conversation at CF with a guy who was arguing that the Declaration of Independence and the US constitution should be officially made the last book of the Bible. I don't THINK thats a very mainstream idea, but sometimes, one wonders... What the hell would it be called? The Book of America, Fuck Yeah? |
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Khris
Full Member
Looks older than they are
Posts: 225
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Post by Khris on Aug 29, 2011 5:00:02 GMT -5
Washington 1:1 And as i crossed the delaware i feared no one evil for the lord saw my light and floated us safely.
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 29, 2011 5:04:42 GMT -5
I seem to recall once having a conversation at CF with a guy who was arguing that the Declaration of Independence and the US constitution should be officially made the last book of the Bible. I don't THINK thats a very mainstream idea, but sometimes, one wonders... What the hell would it be called? The Book of America, Fuck Yeah? You think I'm joking? Seriously... they walk among us, and look just like everybody else. |
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Khris
Full Member
Looks older than they are
Posts: 225
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Post by Khris on Aug 29, 2011 5:05:55 GMT -5
yet they are batshit insane
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 29, 2011 5:09:45 GMT -5
yet they are batshit insane and they vote. |
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Post by Art Vandelay on Aug 29, 2011 5:50:36 GMT -5
What the hell would it be called? The Book of America, Fuck Yeah? You think I'm joking? Seriously... they walk among us, and look just like everybody else. Oh I have no trouble believing some idiot would want a couple of political documents that have fuck all to do with Christianity to be in the Bible, I'm honestly curious as to what that book would be called (among a plethora of other questions). |
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Post by Damen on Aug 29, 2011 6:01:14 GMT -5
yet they are batshit insane and they vote. And they're the most likely to vote. |
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Post by erictheblue on Aug 29, 2011 7:18:41 GMT -5
The case for Texas succession grows everyday. I had thought/daydream yesterday about this. I would love to see what happens if the Tea Party took over Texas and then left the US. Or heck, they got complete control of any place, so long as I didn't have to put up with the consequences. |
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Post by largeham on Aug 29, 2011 7:37:03 GMT -5
As someone on the outside looking in, can I just say (again) how weird the sanctification and cannonisation of the US "Founding Fathers" looks to everyone else? Definitely. I swear, the amount of times I've seen Americans base an argument around the idea that the founders would've supported it, you'd think they were somehow infallible. While I agree it is kinda weird, in my limited experience it seems to be somewhat common. Turkey's treatment of Ataturk and India's treatment of Gandhi are somewhat similar. Maybe it is a feature of relatively modern states that were born out of a traumatic experience? |
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Post by the sandman on Aug 29, 2011 7:40:29 GMT -5
As someone on the outside looking in, can I just say (again) how weird the sanctification and cannonisation of the US "Founding Fathers" looks to everyone else? It's odd, but totally understandable. The USA is in the fairly unique position of being a (historically speaking) very recently created entity, and one that was created by a process of rejecting the parent culture rather than merely separating from it. This resulted in a culture without solid and consistent cultural roots in the popular consciousness. Unlike the older cultures of the world, the USA lacks heroes and cultural icons sufficiently removed in time to be mutable. The USA has no El Cid or King Richard or Charles the Great or Julius Caesar or Cleopatra or the like. These cultural touch-stones, while originally based on reality, have been heavily modified and remodeled to reflect the culture they now represent. While these icons remain part of the historical record, that record is sufficiently spotty and vague on so many things that these historical figures are now largely more legend and symbol than real people. And as legends and symbols, they can be what the culture wants them to be. The USA lacks that long recorded history. When the new nation was formed in rebellion, the cultural icons of the parent culture were rejected en masse, so when the new nation started looking for new icons to build a national identity around, the only real option was the so-called "Founding Fathers." They are the American version of King Arthur or Spartacus. Larger-than-life legends that represent and embody the culture. The only problem is that the Founding Fathers are NOT obscured by seas of time. Historically speaking, two and a half centuries is nothing. The historical record is quite solid on who these people were and what they did, and this presents a problem, since often the reality of the Founding Fathers was not exactly what the cultural consciousness of Americans wanted it to be. Which results in a kind of weird, historical schizophrenia in the USA about the Founding Fathers. We go back and forth between holding them up as shining paragons of everything the US stands for and forcing ourselves to remember that a bunch of them were blatant Deists, most of them owned slaves, the vast majority of Jefferson descendants are black, Franklin was a horndog of the highest order, and many other little inconvenient realities. If these individuals had lived, say, a thousand years ago, then all of these little details would be discarded and they would become legends and icons, but they did not live a thousand years ago and these details are still there in the verifiable record. This is also why you get so many weirdly bizarre stories about the Founding Fathers. From Washington throwing silver dollars across rivers and Jefferson straightening horseshoes with his bare hands to Lincoln writing the Gettysburg Address on the back on an envelope on the train to Pennsylvania. It's the deliberate construction of a mythology. The US needed heroes. It needed legends and symbols, and the Founding Fathers were tapped for the position. Unfortunately many small-minded, historically cowardly politicians in modern America invoke the "legendary" Founding Fathers rather than the real people, and use the simplified, stripped-down, hijacked versions to emotionally blackmail the citizens. |
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