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Post by Shane for Wax on Jun 7, 2010 11:40:26 GMT -5
Let's see. I have not been here all that long. I know only a handful of people on here (by know, I talk to them on the IRC channel). There is no fucking way for it to be a conspiracy against you sweetcheeks just because I am presenting my argument that is going up against your whacked out ideas that seem to be given to you by Dr. Phil. Could it be that the people who are arguing against you and backing me up are doing so because I'm right and you are wrong?
Honey, you have to read a lot more on the internet (from REAL trustworthy sources) and in books to be able to go up against me. I know my stuff. And it isn't just because I'm a genderqueer. I learned this stuff in school from teachers with multiple degrees in their fields and 20+ years experience in those fields.
You argue against my points by saying in my experience. Well guess what bitch? My experience, the experience of my girlfriend, the experience of all the others who are trans and genderqueer on here are a bit more credible than your experiences if you aren't even trans or genderqueer yourself. Telling us, us who have gone through life with our identities, acting in the roles we assigned ourselves, that we are lying when we say we aren't depressed, that we are lying about all sorts of other things is a bitch move from you. Your experiences are not as credible our first hand experiences. There is no two ways about it. You can't tell us how we feel. It doesn't work that way.
I can debate this until the end of time. But of course you pulled the whiny 'oh no I'm losing' card by saying the argument is 'fucking stupid anyway'. Lots of people say that when they are losing. Pick the hill upon which you wish to die, darling. I will gladly run you through with my quill any day, any time, any place. I will gladly debate you, regardless of the fact it would be against an unarmed foe.
By the way, you have failed to give me any of this damning evidence that disagrees with my assertion. My one single link has you quivering and crying that I'm a big mean bully that is friends with everyone on the forum.
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Post by Mira on Jun 7, 2010 17:31:00 GMT -5
Shane is asserting that Gender Roles are societal products. Gender Identity does not revolve around Gender Roles though, and thus the fact of one being a societal product does nothing to impact the fact that the other is inborn. Of course, you seem adamant on misrepresenting Shane's argument and won't see that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong on your interpretation of Shane's posts. I'm just gonna add a bit of my own testimony. I was raised by my two brothers, my dad on the weekends, and my mother who filled a traditionally male gender role. I have had almost zero female influence on my development. Understandably this has shifted my own preferences. I play lots of video games, I wear jeans and t-shirts, I hate pink frilly things, I don't know much about nurturing (was the youngest in my whole extended family), am not a big talker, I dislike makeup, and I enjoy intelligent discussion. Despite these things I am female. These traits make no difference, what is typically seen as a male gender role was all I was exposed to. I am okay with this, but I get deeply irritated when people refer to me like I'm a guy. Even worse, my family has tried to say that I just act so male, I'm obviously not a girl. Anywho, I'll stop before I get angry. Pretty much, gender is hardwired, but gender roles aren't. |
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Post by davedan on Jun 7, 2010 19:49:40 GMT -5
I like circle jerks unless I have to eat the sao.
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Post by Spark on Jun 7, 2010 20:14:54 GMT -5
I like circle jerks unless I have to eat the sao.And I just learned a new word. |
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Post by davedan on Jun 7, 2010 20:37:02 GMT -5
Sao's a type of biscuit or cracker if you will.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Jun 8, 2010 23:11:56 GMT -5
I however am getting quite uppity over Shane's assertion that there is no such thing as "hardwiring" when the majority of research seems to indicate there is. Show me the majority of research that specifically states that gender roles are 'hardwired' into us at birth. Not gender identity but roles, please. Thank you. Please comprehend the words that are spewing from my keyboard. |
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Jun 9, 2010 6:32:33 GMT -5
I'll be damned if I can define what, exactly, gender identity is or what it means to feel like one particular gender and not the other, but it's definitely not a matter of our role in society or our personal interests. It's way more abstract than that.
For what it's worth, I haven't seen Shane deny that gender identity exists anywhere in this thread. It's gender stereotypes, the roles we're expected to fill and the idea that everyone has a concrete gender that have been criticized, rather than the existence of gender itself.
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Jun 9, 2010 11:24:09 GMT -5
I'm a bloke!
Anyone still following this thread?
Care much?
*scratches head, wanders off*
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Post by Shane for Wax on Jun 9, 2010 11:24:11 GMT -5
You're right. I have never denied and never will deny that gender identity exists or could possibly be hardwired. it's the roles we fill based on our upbringing and our own thoughts of how we should fit into society that I deny being hardwired.
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Post by Vypernight on Jun 10, 2010 7:15:29 GMT -5
I have nothing against genderqueers/androgynes. My remarks were also not directed at genderqueers so your offense is unfounded. However it seems to me that you're going to extraordinary efforts to tear down the foundation of other transgenders to justify your own existence, which is crossing a line for me. Maybe you are correct after all and gender is not hard-wired; however what you're setting out to do is pretty selfish and mean spirited. What? I'm hoping that by, 'selfish and mean-spirited,' you're referring to people verbally laying into you and not their choice to alter their sex. I mean, I'm an agnostic, straight male (a minority on this board), and I'm calling bullshit! And depression from that gender role comes from people not accepting them as ligit human beings, not from any mental problems. If you're not happy with your sex, change it. As long as you're not hurting anyone, I see no problem with it. The people who think it's their business what others do with their bodies that is selfish and mean-spirited. I'm hoping that's what you meant by the above quote. I don't know if there is an afterlife or rebirth. But this could be your only chance on this planet. If you want to be the other sex, go for it. You're more human than those who believe they can tell you otherwise. |
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Post by shadowpanther on Jun 10, 2010 7:31:36 GMT -5
Kamille's a man's name and I'm a man!
*Disclaimer: Poster is not called Kamille.*
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Post by Meshakhad on Jun 11, 2010 13:00:34 GMT -5
I don't actually consider gender to be an important part of my identity. To me, it's mostly physical.
Here's something to consider. Say you were captured by an alien wizard and thrown into an "identity scrambler". This device will, retroactively, alter elements of who you are - your gender, appearance, personality, religious beliefs, etc. You have the ability to focus on some of those things and save them, but not others. What would you save? What would you sacrifice?
Me, I'd focus on personality and religion - the mental things. To hell with my gender.
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Post by Mira on Jun 11, 2010 13:51:50 GMT -5
I don't actually consider gender to be an important part of my identity. To me, it's mostly physical. Here's something to consider. Say you were captured by an alien wizard and thrown into an "identity scrambler". This device will, retroactively, alter elements of who you are - your gender, appearance, personality, religious beliefs, etc. You have the ability to focus on some of those things and save them, but not others. What would you save? What would you sacrifice? Me, I'd focus on personality and religion - the mental things. To hell with my gender. The point is, gender is mental. Male and female brains are neurologically distinct. You may think that you'd be fine being female, but it would cause significant distress if your sex wasn't changed along with it. |
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Post by matante on Jun 12, 2010 8:26:44 GMT -5
Hmm... and what about people who don't have a gender identity that they're aware of?
I identified more with boys when I was four because I prefered their games to the girls', so mom gave me some medicine books to teach me about sex. (she had taught me the basics of reading already) I prefered to read about diseases than anatomy, but I knew the mechanics of reproduction before starting school... and still didn't know the definition of "boy" and "girl". I didn't get how the way one participates in making babies should define them in everything else they do. When the idea that society did think this way finally sank in, I still didn't feel like it concerned me, or that it should.
It got me into quarrels with many teachers through elementary school, both because I was randomly drawn to male of female groups or activities, and because my skill set was closer to a male stereotype. I had to take math exams in a storage room away from the class and was still suspected of cheating. In what would be ninth grade, I shaved my head and went as neutral for the rest of high school. From that point on the worst I got was weird looks.
Now when a form asks for it, checking my sex is a formality, I still don't internalise its meaning. Health events at age 14 changed my pituitary gland's functionment and stopped my sexual development, so my body looks quite neutral as well, and when talking to strangers I let them decide if they want to call me "sir" or "miss", I'm a little upset if someone else corrects them, it humiliates them and makes the conversation awkward.
In conclusion... I have no conclusion. Inside of me I don't feel that I'm female, but I don't feel otherwise either. Is there a name for that?
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Post by Madame Scarlet on Jun 12, 2010 10:09:30 GMT -5
Agender is a term that applies to that. If anyone knows any better terms please chime in.
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