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Post by Mira on Oct 14, 2009 12:25:01 GMT -5
Just in case anyone was hoping for me to say something here, I'm not really going to participate. Just going to say I love my culture, and that suicide is simply the last refuge of the weak-minded no matter what country you come from. Weak minded? It's the refuge of the mentally ill! As someone who's the survivor of a parental suicide and someone who's had these thoughts themselves, your remarks are simply detestable. You show no respect to people who are in pain.
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Post by spaniel on Oct 14, 2009 18:05:31 GMT -5
In a desperate attempt to quell the argument, America sucks, Italy sucks, Malawi sucks, Chile sucks, Australia sucks, and Japan sucks.
Are we clear?
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Post by Jodie on Oct 14, 2009 18:18:00 GMT -5
Everyone sucks. Got it.
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Post by The Lazy One on Oct 14, 2009 18:50:44 GMT -5
delete please, my response was not very well thought-out.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Oct 14, 2009 21:07:25 GMT -5
You can delete your own posts, ya know.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Oct 14, 2009 21:13:06 GMT -5
Just in case anyone was hoping for me to say something here, I'm not really going to participate. Just going to say I love my culture, and that suicide is simply the last refuge of the weak-minded no matter what country you come from. I'm not really gonna participate either except to say that I hope you never get so depressed, so worn out, so sick of life that you become "weak minded" and choose the only way out that you can see. Also fuck you.
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Post by Yaezakura on Oct 15, 2009 0:06:43 GMT -5
I've had suicidal thoughts. Hell, I still do occasionally. Frankly, my life sucks. I have very little reason to get out of bed in the morning. But suicide just robs me of the chance to ever experience something better. Even if I don't see a way out now, that doesn't mean I won't find one in the future.
I have all the respect in the world for people in pain, because I know pain. But I can only really respect those who choose to live with it until they find a way to fix things. Suicide is the quick and easy way. It's not a solution, but the ultimate avoidance. I can't respect the people that succumb to that, even though I feel deeply sorry that they experienced pain deep enough to cause it.
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Post by dasfuchs on Oct 15, 2009 0:58:04 GMT -5
I wouldn't say suicide is the weak way out. A good friend of mine way back was diagnosed with diabetes and was loosing the use of his legs (he was in his 70's), so rather than become chairbound and a burden on his wife and family, we walked down to the river one day, waded out far enough and drownd himself. Maybe to you that's cowardice or weak minded, but to me, though tragic, is rather bold and, hard as it is to see it at times, unselfish
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Post by Yaezakura on Oct 15, 2009 1:03:57 GMT -5
In a situation such as that, I can understand it. When there's literally no hope of things ever improving, such a terminal disease or some such, it's just going on your own terms instead of wasting away. But of course, that's not the kind of suicide I'm talking about here.
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Post by The_L on Oct 16, 2009 15:45:55 GMT -5
I've had suicidal thoughts. Hell, I still do occasionally. Frankly, my life sucks. I have very little reason to get out of bed in the morning. But suicide just robs me of the chance to ever experience something better. Even if I don't see a way out now, that doesn't mean I won't find one in the future. I have all the respect in the world for people in pain, because I know pain. But I can only really respect those who choose to live with it until they find a way to fix things. Suicide is the quick and easy way. It's not a solution, but the ultimate avoidance. I can't respect the people that succumb to that, even though I feel deeply sorry that they experienced pain deep enough to cause it. For the record, I once went for days where I wondered how many of the aspirins in the bathroom it would take to kill me and how much it would hurt. I wondered if I could do it and actually die before the paramedics found me and pumped my stomach. And the only reason I never found out is because when I was on the verge of actually doing it, this one friend would knock on the door to my dorm room and invite me to hang out at the mall, play video games, watch a movie, etc. I don't consider myself a strong person because I didn't commit suicide. Again, the only reason I didn't is because I'm easily distracted. Nor do I consider myself weak for having those thoughts in the first place. (Granted, the circumstances that drove me to that degree of depression were mostly my fault, but once I was actually IN that situation, I don't think anything could have prevented my depression.)
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Post by Jodie on Oct 16, 2009 16:00:57 GMT -5
I can only speak from personal experience (obviously) but I've struggled with my mental illness all my life and have contemplated suicide innumerable times and actually attempted to take my life about 6 times now. Thankfully I wasn't able to do it but in hindsight I realized that I didn't actually want to die but just wanted the pain to stop. I think that is where many people who struggle with suicidal ideation get lost because they are unaware of alternatives.
Along with the still prevalent social stigma of mental illness and suicide, community resources for assistance with mental health and suicide prevention are still relatively unknown. And in a lot of places community mental health assistance is terribly underfunded or completely non-existant.
I didn't know about my city's mental health crisis helpline until after my last suicide attempt. Those types of resources are just not advertized in the public square as much as they should be, though it does seem that mental health issues and resources have gained much more attention in recent years, at least where I live.
Of course people who are determined to take their own lives will do it regardless but I think a lot of people who just want the pain to stop are unaware that there is help available and thus feel that there is no way out of their situation, so it is not because they are "weak-minded" or looking for an easy exit.
Er, that's what I think anyway. (Sorry for the word salad.)
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Post by Mr. Turquoise on Oct 16, 2009 17:48:19 GMT -5
Sorry to rerail this thread, but I just wanted to point out to Skyfire that watching cartoons and reading Wikipedia doesn't make one an expert on Japan. Given that the last time I talked to Skyfire about Japan and Japanese culture, it was because he'd linked to a dreadfully immature and inaccurate (not to mention, highly offensive) depiction of said culture in the form of a Transformers fanfic he'd authored. If you recall, Sky, you refused to acknowledge that your depiction was woefully inaccurate, rejected my offer to assist you in correcting the more obvious inaccuracies, and failed to offer an apology for disparaging my wife and daughter's cultural heritage.
So, Skyfire, if you are really interested in having a conversation about some of the issues that you raised (you largely got your facts right, but you're analysis was rather inept), I would be more than happy to share with you some of my insights, having lived in Japan for nearly a decade. If not, I'll kindly ask you to cease criticizing something that you clearly do not understand in the slightest.
There is no "hidden truth" of Japan. There are cultural differences, some of which are substantial. However, if you actually take the time to try to understand rather than simply dismiss these differences, you may actually learn something about yourself and your own culture. Further, if Japan made a conscious effort to keep it's dark side "hidden", Skyfire wouldn't have been able to "learn" all he has by reading easily accessible public-domain sources. Perhaps the Japanese could learn something about hiding their dark secrets from the LDS church, eh.
Mr. Turquoise
P.S. Naturally, my invitation to talk about Japanese culture is also extended to rebelliousscot or anyone else who is interested. Just let me know.
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Post by rebelliousscot on Oct 16, 2009 17:59:14 GMT -5
Sorry to rerail this thread, but I just wanted to point out to Skyfire that watching cartoons and reading Wikipedia doesn't make one an expert on Japan. Given that the last time I talked to Skyfire about Japan and Japanese culture, it was because he'd linked to a dreadfully immature and inaccurate (not to mention, highly offensive) depiction of said culture in the form of a Transformers fanfic he'd authored. If you recall, Sky, you refused to acknowledge that your depiction was woefully inaccurate, rejected my offer to assist you in correcting the more obvious inaccuracies, and failed to offer an apology for disparaging my wife and daughter's cultural heritage. So, Skyfire, if you are really interested in having a conversation about some of the issues that you raised (you largely got your facts right, but you're analysis was rather inept), I would be more than happy to share with you some of my insights, having lived in Japan for nearly a decade. If not, I'll kindly ask you to cease criticizing something that you clearly do not understand in the slightest. There is no "hidden truth" of Japan. There are cultural differences, some of which are substantial. However, if you actually take the time to try to understand rather than simply dismiss these differences, you may actually learn something about yourself and your own culture. Further, if Japan made a conscious effort to keep it's dark side "hidden", Skyfire wouldn't have been able to "learn" all he has by reading easily accessible public-domain sources. Perhaps the Japanese could learn something about hiding their dark secrets from the LDS church, eh. Mr. Turquoise P.S. Naturally, my invitation to talk about Japanese culture is also extended to rebelliousscot or anyone else who is interested. Just let me know. Thanks for coming in Turquoise. Where ot begin, I don't know. Just had to say, thanks for not attacking me, because I was pretty thick in my actions. But yeh apologized enough. I'd love to hear about it all. No sarcasm intended by that remark.
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Post by Trevelyan on Oct 16, 2009 19:56:05 GMT -5
Mr. Turrquoise,
Thanks for offering to give us some facts. If you don't mind I'd like to ask a few questions that might help to set Sky a little straighter on facts regarding Japan and its culture.
First, I think the main one he was harping on. The Japanese appear to be a highly structured culture that regards achievement and hard work as being pretty much a granted that people will do. Sometimes it may seem to us that they are workaholics, that they perhaps push themselves and their children to achieve unfair goals. How accurate is that? Do many Japanese people feel that their culture puts an unfair strain to overachieve on them, or is that merely they way we perceive it because of cultural differences?
Also, I'd like to ask about why the Japanese culture seems....eccentric to us. I don't mean that in a negative way either. I mean, they use vending machines a lot of there, or so we've been lead to believe. Is this accurate? Now, I at least, have heard that this is because there is stigma's attached to social interactions in so far as it is easy to do something that is considered socially inappropriate over there. Again, is that accurate or do they just love stuff that's been in a vending machine?
If you don't want to answer those in this thread that is cool, but I think it would be nice to have someone who actually lived in Japan to maybe tell us some of the things about its culture.
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Post by Mr. Turquoise on Oct 16, 2009 20:06:27 GMT -5
Thanks for coming in Turquoise. Where ot begin, I don't know. Just had to say, thanks for not attacking me, because I was pretty thick in my actions. But yeh apologized enough. I'd love to hear about it all. No sarcasm intended by that remark. Why would I attack you? You expressed your curiosity and, as far as I could tell, were merely grateful for the information Skyfire provided. I didn't really see anything that would give me cause to attack you. Unless I missed the post where you said "ZOMG! JAPAN SUX!". Why don't I try to put a major cultural issue into context, and you can ask me about related issues after that. Does that sound OK? Skyfire talked in some detail about the stifling of individuality and suicide, as though these are shameful elements of Japanese society. Interestingly, both of these issues are related to a largely positive aspect of Japanese culture - the idea of wa (harmony). Confucianism was a major influence on early Japanese culture, and one of the most lasting effects is the notion of wa. Simply put, when a Japanese makes a decision, they will tend to choose the outcome that maximizes the wa. In practical terms, this means that a Japanese will regularly inconvenience him/herself in order to avoid causing inconvenience to others. So, how does this relate to school? Well, all students wear uniforms, but this is not unique to Japan. Uniform rules are very strict (again, not unique to Japan), and within the school grounds, these rules tend to be enforced. Again, this is much the same as school rules being enforced in school grounds all over the world. The reality is that there is not an official policy of stifling individuality, or at least, no more so than you might find in any other school in any country. But what about bullying? Well, of course, it happens. To put it into context, just under 99% of people in Japan are ethic Japanese (and well over half of the "foreign" population are Asian), and bullies in Japan, like those anywhere else, target those who are different. Sometimes they target foreign students, sometimes they target the so-called hafu (half-Japanese) students, and sometimes they target Japanese students who are simply different in some way. There are certainly problems with the way bullying is handled in the schools, with many members of staff doing nothing and many parents wanting to avoid causing a fuss (this lack of response is partially due to wa - it would be rude to upset the parents of the bullies/victims and it would be rude for the parents to point out the failures of the school staff). Again though, this happens elsewhere - my brother and I were bullied at our school in the UK and the headmaster refused to deal with the issue (he even suggested that my step-mother's complaints about his inaction were making the situation worse). The bullying issue was the biggest reason I didn't want my daughter to go to school in Japan - not because she won't be bullied here in Canada, but because I'd embarrass my wife if I had to complain about the problem in Japan (even I have to think about the wa). This "don't rock the boat" attitude follows Japanese into the workplace. Although the "job for life" is now a thing of the past, a fair number of Japanese still consider their workplace to be an important part of their lives, and thus, they always have to consider the wa. It's still quite common to see people loitering in the office because they don't want to leave before their boss or a more senior co-worker (the sempai/ kohai (senior/junior) dynamic is a very powerful one in Japanese society). But Skyfire is way off base with idea that "screwing up" is a particularly great sin. A far worse sin is to excel, particularly if your performance surpasses your senior co-workers. A mistake, no matter how grievous, is forgiven with an apology and a deep bow - embarrassing your sempai by outdoing him/her is a cardinal sin that requires some serious grovelling. Which brings us to suicide. Shame is a central element of Japanese culture. A lot of people talk about Japanese "honour", but in reality, shame is the driving force in many relationships. It ties in with wa because upsetting the harmony of one's family, company, school, town, etc. is associated with great shame. And bringing shame upon oneself also brings shame upon one's family, etc. Unfortunately, for many, the only way they can see to avoid bringing shame onto their families is to commit suicide. Skyfire mentioned seppuku, and it's fair to say that suicide has long been part of Japanese culture. But the central reason for suicide has remained the same - to avoid bringing shame to your house. As an aside, not long after I arrived in Japan, a man jumped in front of the train that I was on as it pulled into my station, and I can still hear the scream of the woman who witnessed it, and I can feel the dull thud as the train hit him. It was a thoroughly unpleasant experience. But when I mentioned the incident to a Japanese student of mine, she said that she thought the man was brave for jumping in front of the train. I disagreed with her, but I made a conscious effort to find out more about that aspect of Japanese culture in order better understand how she could think such a thing, and why the man jumped in the first place. Sorry if it's a little tl;dr, but this is a rather complex element of Japanese culture. Seriously, I lived there for nearly a decade and I feel like I just scratched the surface. Mr. Turquoise
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