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Post by the sandman on Apr 5, 2010 9:01:11 GMT -5
I'm going to have to agree with Sky, Zero Tolerance = Zero Common Sense. All these policies do is protect people from having to make judgment calls. One of the biggest things I remember about my high school was the fact that, according to the student handbook, if at any point in time a fight broke out both parties were subject to getting arrested by the campus cops. That's right: if a person was beating the hell out of you, you had to go and get a teacher; trying to defend yourself was regarded as a criminal offense. I 'bout near made one of the cops piss himself one day over that. He and one or two other cops came into the intro / business & personal law class I took my junior year for a Q&A session, and I asked them about it point-blank. Apparently, they'd never even heard of that clause in the student handbook and were mortified at the prospect of having to arrest someone simply for self-defense. Do you have any idea why most schools maintain that policy Sky? It's because otherwise every physical altercation turns into a major investigation, something the school personnel are neither trained for nor have time for. Fight happens. Teachers intervene. They never see the beginning of the fight, so they grab Kid One and say "What happened?" Kid One says "He started it!" Kid Two says "No way! He started it!" Surrounding kids say "We don't know anything," sticking to the ever-present "NO SNITCH" rule found in schools, 'hoods, and prisons everywhere. Teachers have now opened Pandora's Box. They must try to channel Sherlock Fucking Holmes and deduce and infer an entire series of events by interviewing people who are all either denying they know anything, suffering from extreme persecution syndrome, or just plain outright lying their asses off. And they have to do this with no legal authority to force any kind of testimony in a situation where all parties consider them to be the "true" enemy. The teachers know the situation sucks, and we know that in cases of bullying, one party is likely 100% responsible for the conflict. We also deal with the fact that this bullying, thanks to the "NO SNITCH" rule, has most likely gone unreported for some time. We also know the bully will deny, deny, deny, deny, and will likely have "witnesses" that will back them up, something the victim probably does not have, since fellow students rarely stick up for the victims of bullying. So going by the surface "evidence." the bully is proved innocent and the victim is the instigator. We know this is bullshit, and the only way to snag the bully is to institute a blanket "NO FIGHTING" policy. Otherwise it's a long, drawn-out "investigation" that rarely leads to anything even vaguely resembling "justice." In the community at large, we have people whose job it is to do these kind of investigations, to prosecute and defend, to judge and sentence. It's called "the Judicial System." We don't have that in school. All we have in school is a Principal, a Vice Principal, and a handful of teachers, all of whom are already massively overworked. It's just not possible to open this can of worms in a school setting. It's also not practical. It would turn every conflict into a major situation. Every fight becomes a court case. Everyone involved needs advocates. It would be a nightmare. So schools go for the "NO FIGHTING" policy. We know that sometimes kids get caught in it through no fault of their own. Good teachers and administrators quietly intervene in these cases. I had one last month. Kid getting bullied, he fought back, got a Saturday detention. I had him serve the detention with me. We spent 4 hours playing X-Box and watching cartoons. That was his "punishment." The Principal stopped by, glanced in the room, and just kept walking. The bully? He got to clean bathrooms for 4 hours and when he gave the Principal attitude over it, earned himself another one the following week. That's how a good school does it. From an educational point of view, we just can't let the schools devolve (or possibly evolve) into a system where the only guilty party is the one who "started" it. Especially since in many cases, the origins of the conflict are so complex and old that no one even really remembers who started it.....except, of course, that everyone KNOWS it wasn't them.As an afterthought, the research does show conclusively that "standing up" to a bully is less than 50% effective at stopping the problem. If the "standing up" is done in public, where the bully loses face, then the studies show the effectiveness is less than 20%. Which isn't to say it never works, just that the odds of it working are against you. It really depends on the motives of the bully and the situation. There are situations where I have advised a student to kick some ass....off school property, of course. There are situations where I have advised students to seek other means of dealing with the situation, from mediation to humor to simply staying away from the asshole. It is rare that I advise physically confronting a bully...it usually just doesn't work. Especially in the urban environment where I teach where "face" and reprisals are not only modeled and taught by the parents, but insisted upon. I had a parent once tell me that his kid might get suspended for fighting at school, but he would get his ass kicked at home for not fighting, because the father "Wasn't gonna have no punkass pussy in [his] house." Guess what? His kid WAS the bully. The only thing that seems to be effective at stopping bullying is when the school community, the administration, teachers, and student body, all decide they have had enough and refuse to tolerate it. But the students HAVE to be part of the solution. As long as the "NO SNITCH" rule holds its death grip on the youth culture concerning bullying, it will never end. And teachers do the best they can to control it.
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Post by Caitshidhe on Apr 5, 2010 9:43:29 GMT -5
My dad--as much of a total prick and emotional pygmy as he turned out to be--was bullied in high school, both in school and out. The only way he got them to stop was by kicking the crap out of them. On his own time, of course. Frankly it's a better tactic than 'de-bugging', which was the drivel dripped into our ears like a Chinese-water-torture from elementary school onward. In a nutshell it was 'IGNORE THE PROBLEM, IT'LL TOTALLY GO AWAY BY ITSELF!', which is patently the worst advice you can give to anyone about anything. ("Yes, if I just ignore this suspicious lump/mole/bruising spot/bone sticking up out of my leg, the problem is sure to resolve itself!") Solving problems peaceably is all well and good but sometimes the only solution to a problem is to kick someone's ass. When you're not an easy target, you're not fun to pick on anymore.
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Post by the sandman on Apr 5, 2010 9:45:59 GMT -5
Oh, Lord. Ignoring bullying is pretty much the only thing 100% guaranteed to NEVER work.
To be honest, I've always found that the best way to not get bullied is to not go around acting like a damn victim. Pick your head up, walk like you got a pair, be outgoing and have lots of mates. I can totally spot the students who come into my room with a big "PLEASE BULLY ME" sign over their heads, and I can usually intervene before it starts.
That said, sometimes a bully is just a sociopathic asshole who chooses a victim for no good reason. In those cases, you just need to make yourself as difficult to bully as possible. And really, there are a lot of ways to do that.
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Post by Caitshidhe on Apr 5, 2010 9:58:10 GMT -5
Unfortunately that 'de-bugging' shit as well as the zero-tolerance policy basically made me want to run and hide to avoid bullying. Plus I was picked on in US schools from day one, which, you know, SUCKED. Kinda hard to grow a pair and keep your head up when you feel like shit all the time. (Being bullied by my PARENTS doesn't help, either.)
I was suspended twice for fighting, and both times I started it because I was sick of being picked on. Once was with a girl who'd picked on me for years who was picking on me again and it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel--the other time with a guy who put an enormous MasterLock on my knapsack and then had the gall to say I owed him to replace it after I got the cops to cut it off with their boltcutters. (The worst part about that second one was my mom took the bully's side and made me write an apology note to him and his parents.)
My life is so much fun. Pardon me while I hit something.
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Post by canadian mojo on Apr 5, 2010 11:47:57 GMT -5
(The worst part about that second one was my mom took the bully's side and made me write an apology note to him and his parents.) My life is so much fun. Pardon me while I hit something. You should have put the lock in a sock and taken a few swings at your mother for that bullshit.
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Post by Caitshidhe on Apr 5, 2010 11:59:52 GMT -5
My dad tends to be the less-batshit of my parents. He told me that while he wasn't happy with what I'd done, he understood why I did it. And next time not to do it on school property where there are cameras.
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Post by spaniel on Apr 5, 2010 12:26:50 GMT -5
Since we seem to be sharing our stories of idiotic administration, I might as well add my own. When I was in middle school, one of the teachers really abhorred comics for some reason. If she saw anyone reading a comic on their free period, she would confiscate it. At one point, a friend of mine borrowed one of my volumes of Ranma 1/2, and he was reading it on the bus on a field trip. She took it away, ignoring the fact that it belonged to me, and that I shouldn't be punished for what he was doing. I later learned that she had no idea how comics worked, as she asked a friend reading Tsubasa after school "is this all dialogue?" For laughs, a friend and I saved up for Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud and mailed it to her during the summer.
In high school, however, no one cares if I read comics or not. The English teacher and I even had a conversation about Alan Moore!
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Post by Vene on Apr 5, 2010 12:32:22 GMT -5
This is just my personal experience and not applicable to other people (there, disclaimer out of the way), but I've found that confusing the fuck out of a bully to be effective. They try to start with a verbal attack. Do the same, only better, and direct it at yourself.
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Post by Mira on Apr 5, 2010 15:08:47 GMT -5
Despite being a huge dork, I've never been one to be bullied. I was able to pick up what caused people to be bullied pretty well. Mostly things that have already been mentioned.
Don't look like a victim, keep your head up and walk confidently.
Don't get into arguments.
If you're acutely verbally defensive, you're more likely to be targeted.
Be able to make fun of yourself. Takes the fun away from somebody else.
Be nice to everyone. Less people are likely to give you shit that way, and others are more likely to defend you.
Clothing is very important, don't wear dorky clothes. Don't tuck your shirt in, t-shirt and blue jeans should do fine. Remember that clothing and body language are the two biggest things for someone's first impression of you.
Hygiene.
If you can do the work, take the AP classes. AP classes are a friggin' blessing.
Bleh, schools are terrible.
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Post by HarleyThomas1002 on Apr 5, 2010 17:33:39 GMT -5
But I'm all about telling someone to fuck off, getting into arguments and overall disliking others.
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Post by tygerarmy on Apr 5, 2010 17:35:07 GMT -5
If the school had just given her a book report, an essay and/or made her clean her desk/every desk in the classroom that'd be one thing. One million is a lot but how much is right? I think NYC should pay for all future schooling and books. Everything from her going to a private junior high, high school and any and all college she attends during her life. That seems fair. It's a lot less than a million dollars, to be sure. Unless she's really smart gets into good schools, earns many degrees and stays in school 'til she's old and gray. Oh, Lord. Ignoring bullying is pretty much the only thing 100% guaranteed to NEVER work. To be honest, I've always found that the best way to not get bullied is to not go around acting like a damn victim. Pick your head up, walk like you got a pair, be outgoing and have lots of mates. I can totally spot the students who come into my room with a big "PLEASE BULLY ME" sign over their heads, and I can usually intervene before it starts. That said, sometimes a bully is just a sociopathic asshole who chooses a victim for no good reason. In those cases, you just need to make yourself as difficult to bully as possible. And really, there are a lot of ways to do that. THIS. And what Mira and Vene said. Besides my first year in elementary, junior high and high school, I was rarely made fun of for being a Ginger. I wasn't called a Ginger 'til college. I made fun of the people who'd make fun of me. I was a nerd but I was funny and I made friends. I talked to whoever was unfotunate enough to be seated next to me. Things only get complicated when you have a bully who is smart or attacks with out reason, either mentally or physically. Or if they are The Super Bully; smarter, funnier, has more friends and is able to beat the crap out of you. In which case you pick at insecurities, which you may have to create. Spoiling jokes also helps. Self deprecating humor. Someone makes fun of you, agree, make it worse and drag them with you.
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Post by ironbite on Apr 5, 2010 17:45:14 GMT -5
YOU'RE A GINGER! THE DOCTOR'S SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO JEALOUS!
Ironbite-he's never been a ginger.
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Post by HarleyThomas1002 on Apr 5, 2010 17:46:46 GMT -5
You've never been a ginger.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Apr 5, 2010 17:54:13 GMT -5
Speaking of bullies... www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6173960-504083.htmlAll nine teenagers involved are charged with various charges. See, this is the problem with how some schools just won't handle bullying. Some things I've heard but can't confirm: 1. After one of the bullying girls was interviewed about Pheobe Prince, she was all sweet and kind, and when she went back to her friends after the interview and laughed with them about how she lied. 2. After one girl testified against the bullies, she was slammed against a locker by them after the crew left.
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Post by HarleyThomas1002 on Apr 5, 2010 17:59:43 GMT -5
That's 'cause snitches get stitches.
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