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Post by Nihilist on Apr 4, 2010 23:06:11 GMT -5
Being as I'm a lazy Latino, scroll up and read the posts where I repeatedly quoted your statements. I'm apparently too lazy to continue quoting things for you as if I'm your housekeeper.
Or rather, look back on page one.
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Post by br26354 on Apr 4, 2010 23:06:49 GMT -5
I thought I already covered that, but okay we will go over it again. At no point did my tune change, i simply elaborated on my views. I'm sorry but my view of the Ghetto overall is that people don't have to be in that predicament, I don't care WHO you are. Clear enough? Are we going to keep going?
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Post by br26354 on Apr 4, 2010 23:08:11 GMT -5
Haha okay, I see where this is going. If that's where you really want to go, then get your ass out of the ghetto and prove me wrong.
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Post by Nihilist on Apr 4, 2010 23:17:39 GMT -5
I thought I already covered that, but okay we will go over it again. At no point did my tune change, i simply elaborated on my views. I'm sorry but my view of the Ghetto overall is that people don't have to be in that predicament, I don't care WHO you are. Clear enough? Are we going to keep going? So, are people lazy, or is it circumstance? Not everybody has the intelligence to get out of a bad situation. Not everyone has support from family. Not everyone is strong-willed. Some end up getting pregnant before their time and decide to keep the children. Some grow up in abusive households. Some people go through divorces, ruining their credit for 10+ years and leaving them shit broke. It's harder than you think to succeed in this country with a credit score ruined because some shithead decided to pull the rug out from under you. Can't even rent a cheap apartment, with a bad credit score. Not even a goddamn Section 8 most times. Some came to the States only to have the people they thought supported them simply leave. I am not denying that with a lot of effort someone can get out of a bad situation- but also, keep in mind the previous reasons. Does that make them a bad person for not being able to get out of it and live the American Dream? What the hell is that dream, anyway? To make copious amounts of money, more than one can possibly dream to do with? Is being rich being successful? Or does that simply mean you make a lot of money? Should I pull out my own race/class credentials? I grew up in a ghetto, lone Latino out of many Native Americans who liked to chase me home, shoot my trailer up, etc. Ever since I was able to work, I've been working, both to support my mother who was laid off, and to go to college. While she was unemployed and had a hell of a time finding a job in this shit economy, my brother and I teamed up to keep us all afloat. So, I never managed to save for college, but look at me, I managed. I work hard- but don't apply my own situational standards to everyone. I've been lucky that my mother pushed me to work hard in school, for starters. Without this scholarship, I wouldn't even be in the big city, living by myself, and about to get two bachelor's degrees at once. But I understand that shit happens, and not everyone is as lucky, or as intelligent. What works for me may not work for the woman who made bad decisions and ended up stuck with 8 children and a husband who left her. Everything's situational and the problem is far more complex than applying broad strokes.
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Post by Vene on Apr 4, 2010 23:32:59 GMT -5
You make it sound like poverty is even coming into play? In many cases, these people have some money, they just waste it on material shit and, in some cases drugs. Life can be hard, but that doesnt mean that people can't pull themselves out of it. I have had family members, the few that i talk to, go through YEARS of night school while working full time to get degrees that have allowed them to be successful. You make it sound as though there is no way out. Do you know why the poor waste money on "material shit and, in some cases drugs?" A single word. Escape. When your life is terrible and you see no way out (whether there is a way out or not is irrelevant here), people try to escape in some manner. Drugs are an easy way of doing so.
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Post by br26354 on Apr 4, 2010 23:34:04 GMT -5
Well, I'm Sorry Nihilist, but that isn't what I have seen in my own experience. Let me give you an example.
My cousin Raquel was raised by a woman who nails ex cons, shoots heroin and has lived in the SAME apartment in the Bronx she lived in since she was a teenager (she grew up in the apartment right next door along with my father) Raquel always got strait A's and her mother would get on her case about why shes acting so white, and why do you want to work your way up in a white system, The only support she got was from my cousin Mia who got out, and has been an IT professional for years (no one in the family other than Raquel and Mia's sister Bianca associates with Mia) Raquel went on the graduate from the Albert Einstein College of medicine and is trying to finish up GRAD courses to be an MD. She's already making a lot of money in her field and can get out of the building whenever. Has she? No, because my aunt, her mother, has mentally and emotionally conditioned her into believing that she can't leave because its where she BELONGS. In fact, in her own words, she belongs with her own KIND.
This is not unique, this happens a lot. I see this many times with other people of Dominican and Pueto rican decent mixed with an inner city background. They trap you into believing that you either can't be succesful, or if you ARE successful, you can never leave, and they hate it when other hispanics ARE, because then the feelings of inadequacy come out, and it makes them look bad. It happened to my father. he left, joined the marines, became and Air Traffic Controller and married a white woman, and he was singled out as the bogus white man. I was even disowned by most of them because I looked too white.
THAT'S the ghetto I know.
In this case, and in MANY cases, it IS laziness dude. I'm sorry that I feel this way, but I'm seriously numb to the whole "urban plight" mentality. It is a myth to me.
Now do we continue this argument, or do we just accept that our views are different for VALID REASONS and be buddies?
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Post by Nihilist on Apr 4, 2010 23:44:24 GMT -5
In this case, and in MANY cases, it IS laziness dude. I'm sorry that I feel this way, but I'm seriously numb to the whole "urban plight" mentality. It is a myth to me. Now do we continue this argument, or do we just accept that our views are different for VALID REASONS and be buddies? Just so you know, I've gotten the same shit for wanting to succeed. "You're too white, Nihilist. You went to school and now you're all high and mighty. You're just like your father- a white asshole. Stay home with la familia, we're the only ones who ever will care about you." Being poor is depressing, dude. Try as one might, one inevitably finds themselves doing things they shouldn't just because it takes the pain away for a short time. I am a recovering alcoholic. I lived off nothing but ramen noodles my first year away from home, simply because I couldn't afford to have a decent diet- and when I went to the store, first thing I thought of was how painful it was to be poor, and inhaled a 30 pack of Pabst. The thing is- it's damn depressing when one tries, only to fail. And it's easy to get sucked into the things that temporarily make us feel better-whether it's drugs, family, or their own race as you're making it out to be. It's the rare person, regardless of background, that can get out of it. Takes a lot of fortitude. Doesn't mean they're lazy- it's just that there are underlying issues behind the mindset and if you deny them because someone you knew was different, that doesn't mean it's correct. Oh, and I'll be your buddy, but I like to wave my dick around. Just so you know.
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Post by skyfire on Apr 4, 2010 23:44:51 GMT -5
So am I really a racist or partly racist just cause I agreed with my friend that they do give his race a bad name, and that essentially there are 2 distinct types of African Americans in the states? Welcome to real life, whereupon someone can be denounced as a "racist" simply for daring to have an opinion that goes against the mainstream. Yes, there is indeed such a divide within the United States. On one hand, you have African-Americans who have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps, such that no matter how far down the chain they started in life they've managed to make a name for themselves. For example, Bill Cosby grew up in a household wherein his father drank away most (if not all) of his paycheck each month; Cosby saw his father as an example of what not to do, and so from an early age applied himself. He now has a PH.D. in education, is a Navy veteran (he spent his term of service doing physical therapy work for injured soldiers), and is one of the most successful entertainers of the past 50 years. On the other hand, you have African-Americans who have seemingly given into the "street" message. They feel that the world somehow owes them a living, and as such tend to shun education and the more "traditional" means of success. Rather, they're more likely to stake their hopes on sports, rap, and/or crime. Alternatively, you might see some who expect Uncle Sam to pay their way through life. For example, 50 Cent's made his entire career on the fact that he's been shot seven times. As you can imagine, whenever the two worlds tend to collide, the African-Americans who have gone out of their way to be successful are often demonized; they're called sell-outs, race traitors, or worse. They're accused of "acting white," and are treated like they are the ones behaving in an embarrassing fashion. For example, take S. B. Fuller, who opened a cosmetics company in 1929. Fuller was a die-hard capitalist, and as such came to believe that entrepreneurial spirit and a working knowledge of economics would be more than enough to help raise African-Americans out of poverty and discrimination and into success; he actually went on record as saying that a lack of business sense was doing more to hurt the African-American community than overt racism. For his efforts, however, all he got was a wave of African-American leaders calling for a boycott of his products; they thought he was besmirching the race. A more recent example comes from Harry Belafonte, who accused Powell and Rice of being "house slaves" because they were working for W and not a Democrat. (and he wonders why his career is in the shitter right now... ) Really, the best thing I've read on the matter would have to be Bill Cosby's Pound Cake Speech, which he delivered in 2004 at the NAACP awards ceremony. Although short, Cosby goes to length to call out those African Americans who behave in such a stereotypical manner as to hurt everyone by association.
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Post by br26354 on Apr 4, 2010 23:48:44 GMT -5
Well then I respect your view, and applaud you for working your ass off.
If you wave your dick around me, just be ready fro a pissing match.
Now toss me a beer and lets watch some porn.
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Post by Nihilist on Apr 4, 2010 23:51:37 GMT -5
Now toss me a beer and lets watch some porn. More beer means more piss, br. Are you sure?
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Apr 4, 2010 23:53:04 GMT -5
"Bling." That should pretty much show that it's not about poverty.
Basically, from what I've seen, many ghetto african americans become a part of the ghetto because it makes them feel persecuted -- and if they feel persecuted, then most of them blame the "white man" for oppressing them, and then feel entitled. And then they treat women like they're objects. It's essentially a devolution of culture that has absolutely nothing to do with race. It's just how ghettos of that nature seem to work.
I'm not saying this to be racist. In fact, I believe that racism is what's responsible for this. Oppressive cultures lead to ghettos lead to even more racism which leads to even more oppression, yada yada. And yes, we are still an oppressive culture.
There's a study (it's one of my sociology school books that shows that doctors, even black doctors, are less likely to prescribe something like painkillers to black people as they are to white people. It's a subconscious part of our culture, and it needs to stop.
The question is... how?
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Post by br26354 on Apr 4, 2010 23:53:59 GMT -5
I dunno, drunken debates with me tend to get strange. Om second we will debate the sociological causes of life in the ghetto, the next it will be over a fight between A Star destroyer and the Starship Enterprise
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Apr 4, 2010 23:55:14 GMT -5
I dunno, drunken debates with me tend to get strange. Om second we will debate the sociological causes of life in the ghetto, the next it will be over a fight between A Star destroyer and the Starship Enterprise Starship Enterprise would TOTALLY win.
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Post by Nihilist on Apr 4, 2010 23:57:22 GMT -5
I dunno, drunken debates with me tend to get strange. Om second we will debate the sociological causes of life in the ghetto, the next it will be over a fight between A Star destroyer and the Starship Enterprise Starship Enterprise would TOTALLY win. Yeah, fuck the Star Destroyer, the Enterprise will win from sheer awesome alone. Although you probably saw that coming from me.
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Post by Vene on Apr 5, 2010 0:01:39 GMT -5
I dunno, drunken debates with me tend to get strange. Om second we will debate the sociological causes of life in the ghetto, the next it will be over a fight between A Star destroyer and the Starship Enterprise Starship Enterprise would TOTALLY win. I'm going with the star destroyer, simply because one ship can wipe out all life on the surface of a planet.
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