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Post by Jedi Knight on May 15, 2010 13:20:24 GMT -5
I have long been of the opinion that the more arbitrary cruelty a species metes out, the smarter it is. The listing goes humans -> other great apes -> dolphins -> other things. I think the scale works. In light of this, how come no one has mentioned the Corvidae? They have very heavy brains in relatin to their body weight, some species can solve tasks that most apes can't, they use and make tools, and believe me, magpies are nasty. I know I may be anthropomorphizing them now, but the damned birds seem to enjoy their cruel behavior. Have you ever seen two magpies tease a cat? Not for food, not for anything, really. Remember, they don't have to, they could just fly away, like most other birds would.
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Post by Tiger on May 15, 2010 15:09:28 GMT -5
...even living sharks are fast, solitary predators that deal with hunting in 3D space. So the most complicated tactic they need is "swim in a straight line towards future food."Though I don't agree with him in the least regarding his views on conservation shark hunter Vic Hislop does make makes one valid point. If you dissect out a tiger shark's brain it's about half the size of one of its eyeballs. You can't expect a creature like that to exhibit complicated hunting tactics. What it does is effective enough though. Basically this. What I said earlier about their brains practically being vestigial wasn't hyperbole, sharks actually can function without their brains for a short period of time.
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Post by cagnazzo on May 15, 2010 15:27:12 GMT -5
Only one species of Corvid has been observed to make tools. And while they are indeed really freaking smart, I don't think that they are on the level dolphins and chimps are.
Or rather, their intelligence is different. We tend to judge intelligence in animals based on the same way we judge it among humans, so birds are at a distinct disadvantage in that way.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on May 15, 2010 16:10:44 GMT -5
Yeah, corvids are the smartest birds. And magpies are indeed assholes. I used to have a Chow Chow and the magpies would steal her food and fly up onto the roof. They didn't actually do it for the food, either. They were just teasing her.
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Post by Jedi Knight on May 15, 2010 16:22:00 GMT -5
Basically this. What I said earlier about their brains practically being vestigial wasn't hyperbole, sharks actually can function without their brains for a short period of time. I'm not impressed. I know of at least a dozen politicians who have functioned well without their brains for fifteen-twenty years.
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Post by canadian mojo on May 15, 2010 19:31:45 GMT -5
Yeah, corvids are the smartest birds. And magpies are indeed assholes. I used to have a Chow Chow and the magpies would steal her food and fly up onto the roof. They didn't actually do it for the food, either. They were just teasing her. I used to have a cat that would have used that as a opportunity to have magpie for dinner. He had an amazing ability to analyze a situation and plot a strategy to exploit it.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on May 15, 2010 20:11:11 GMT -5
I saw a documentary about crows a while back (I think it was on The Nature of Things), which are Corvids. Their problem-solving abilities and social skills were impressive. They even showed them using simple tools, such as tiny sticks to get at things that they couldn't reach. I already knew that crows were intelligent birds (anything capable of mischief has to be intelligent), but I was surprised by how smart they really are.
Edit: Regarding cats and dogs, I've been lucky enough to have had several pets who were extremely intelligent. My old dog managed to cover up the fact that he'd been sneaking in and out of the yard until one of our neighbours told us that he'd followed her son to school, and he (the dog) figured out how to jump up and pull my bedroom door open (latch wasn't working properly, so you didn't have to turn the knob to open it).
My most recent dog (who passed away from cancer last August) loved watching TV so much that he'd sit in front of it while it was off, and gesture with his head towards it indicating that he wanted it turned on. The same dog intentionally pooped on my ex-boyfriend's shoes and then his pillow after he first moved in, not to mention all the other things he did to voice his displeasure about someone new coming into the house. He was the quirkiest dog I've ever had... I could write a book about his antics. I still miss him. :\
Recently, the younger of my two cats (my avatar is him when he was a kitten) has been watching my scoop the poop out of his litter box and dropping it into a small waste basket, which I'll then empty into the toilet; he's started dragging the basket up to his litter box after he's finished relieving himself. He also loves running for the door when I open it, and jumping into my neighbour's yard, then waiting for me to come get him, or leaving his toys in my shoes for me to find in the morning. Mischievous little bugger.
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Post by cagnazzo on May 15, 2010 20:33:02 GMT -5
You think crows using tools are impressive?
Check that out.
I, for one, welcome our new avian overlords.
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Post by Ian1732 on May 16, 2010 14:32:13 GMT -5
Don't forget to check out that one video on how crows are using traffic to bust their nuts.
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Post by Jedi Knight on May 16, 2010 15:30:32 GMT -5
Don't forget to check out that one video on how crows are using traffic to bust their nuts. ...wtf? Oh...never mind!
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Post by cagnazzo on May 16, 2010 16:23:10 GMT -5
Yeah, those crows are pretty smart (and that example shows that they can learn be seeing, as crows will watch other crows and realize what to do), but I am still amazed by the linked video. I mean, making tools! That's crazy shit going on right there.
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Post by anti-nonsense on May 16, 2010 23:21:26 GMT -5
on the subject of nasty corvids, crows frequently mob and harass birds of prey.
And our cat (who died two years ago now) once pooped in the toilet when left alone for a weekend.
Animals are frequently a lot smarter then we give them credit for.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on May 17, 2010 0:05:55 GMT -5
Elephants are pretty clever as well, with a fairly well-developed sense of empathy. They mourn their dead by gathering together to bury deceased members of their group. Not too long ago, a baby elephant died from an infection at the local zoo. Apparently, all of the elephants gathered around him in a circle after he died, showing obvious distress and even appearing to comfort one another. From Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_intelligencePretty impressive.
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Post by cagnazzo on May 17, 2010 0:47:26 GMT -5
Pack animals tend to have pretty good emotional intelligence. I remember when a roommate's dog died - this other dog, who'd basically been raised by him, obviously knew something was up. She howled to get out of the house to him, then sniffled and nuzzled him to get him up, and when that didn't work she lay down touching his body and just whined.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on May 17, 2010 3:21:04 GMT -5
Pack animals tend to have pretty good emotional intelligence. Yeah, I imagine it would be difficult to live in a pack if you lacked something that at least resembled empathy. Still, elephants are pretty intelligent, even for pack animals. As far as I know, they're one of a handful of species that buries their dead and conducts relatively elaborate mourning rituals (compared to other animals), to the point where you could almost call it a primitive funeral. When I was 14, my dog (Louie) died from a brain tumor. After that, my other dog started curling up on the blanket that Louie loved to sleep on, even though she'd shown little interest in it before he died -- it was his residual scent that drew her to it. She'd spend hours lying there, occasionally whimpering. It was really heartbreaking... and also a good lesson in canine emotional intelligence.
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