|
Post by big_electron on May 12, 2010 5:59:36 GMT -5
I have become familiar with Great Ape Personhood; that is, chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and bonobos would be recognized as persons, a move championed by scientists like Richard Dawkins. However, when I googled "Non human persons," I got a ton of hits for dolphins being second most intelligent after humans...
Vene, you are our resident biologist. Why don't you chime in!
I'll tell you what I know about apes. Chimpanzees kick our only-human asses when it comes to short term memory. They have been shown to make and use tools, and pass culture and knowledge down to their offspring. A troop is typically led by an alpha male, but sometimes the subjects judge the leader to be corrupt, and overthrow him. Gorillas have been known to keep other animals as pets. Bonobos know how to make love, not war.
There are also people who want to re-designate chimpanzees from Pan troglodyte to Homo troglodyte
|
|
|
Post by Art Vandelay on May 12, 2010 6:15:59 GMT -5
Well, when it comes to deciding what species an animal is, things such as genetics, evolutionary history and physiology tend to trump emotional psuedo-hippy tripe (like whether or not certain behaviors superficially appear similar to our own).
So no, dolphins and (non-human) apes are not people.
|
|
|
Post by big_electron on May 12, 2010 6:29:07 GMT -5
Dolphin squeaks have been found to be a form of communication, although I'm sure I would never understand them, or probably hear them as they are ultrasonic.
I only had 2 years of Chimpanzeze in high school...
|
|
|
Post by Art Vandelay on May 12, 2010 6:46:58 GMT -5
Well then I think it is perfectly clear that it is not the dolphins that are people, but the people who are dolphins.
|
|
|
Post by Mlle Antéchrist on May 12, 2010 9:57:27 GMT -5
Defining them as persons implies that they're part of our society, which will further encourage people to try to 'civilize' them into our lifestyle or interfere with their natural order. The fact of the matter is that chimpanzees are still wild animals, despite their intelligence and the psychological traits they may share with us. Humanizing them isn't in their best interest. I support passing laws preventing people from keeping them as pets or hunting them, but I worry that labeling them as persons will end up backfiring. A bit off topic, but: I want to slap every idiot who thinks they can bring a chimpanzee into their home and raise it as a pet or a "member of the family". Doing so is cruel, irresponsible and dangerous. It's bad enough that we have jackasses who try to keep lions and bears as pets; when you combine that wild instinct with a higher level of intelligence -- primates, for instance -- you've got a recipe for disaster... such as a woman getting her face ripped off.
|
|
|
Post by Sandafluffoid on May 12, 2010 10:33:18 GMT -5
There are suggestions that dolphins have a grammatical language, and some bonobos have been shown to communicate specific abstract communication.
This is awesome.
|
|
|
Post by Her3tiK on May 12, 2010 11:04:26 GMT -5
What's the point of giving personhood to another species? I thought that term only applied to humans.
|
|
|
Post by Vene on May 12, 2010 11:34:43 GMT -5
Well, when it comes to deciding what species an animal is, things such as genetics, evolutionary history and physiology tend to trump emotional psuedo-hippy tripe (like whether or not certain behaviors superficially appear similar to our own). So no, dolphins and (non-human) apes are not people. If a company can legally obtain personhood, I don't think that genetics has anything to do with it. As for my biological opinion, beats the fuck out of me. I don't know this area as well. I honestly hesitate because dolphins and chimps and such don't exactly integrate into our culture. Also, chimps kind of scare me, they like to eat monkeys, which they kill by ripping them from limb to limb. It's even documented that they will do the same with human babies (link).
|
|
|
Post by cagnazzo on May 12, 2010 11:48:45 GMT -5
I can think of a great ape we already recognize as persons... Well, when it comes to deciding what species an animal is, things such as genetics, evolutionary history and physiology tend to trump emotional psuedo-hippy tripe (like whether or not certain behaviors superficially appear similar to our own). So no, dolphins and (non-human) apes are not people. If a company can legally obtain personhood, I don't think that genetics has anything to do with it. As for my biological opinion, beats the fuck out of me. I don't know this area as well. I honestly hesitate because dolphins and chimps and such don't exactly integrate into our culture. Also, chimps kind of scare me, they like to eat monkeys, which they kill by ripping them from limb to limb. It's even documented that they will do the same with human babies (link).I am strangely disappointed that your link ends in .html rather than .mov.
|
|
|
Post by Mlle Antéchrist on May 12, 2010 12:11:53 GMT -5
I wonder... is it ethical to label a creature as a person if said creature isn't capable of asking for personhood?
|
|
|
Post by cagnazzo on May 12, 2010 13:02:58 GMT -5
I don't see why not. It's not like the label "person" is ever harmful. It's the labels that remove personhood that we tend to get uppity about.
|
|
|
Post by Oriet on May 12, 2010 14:29:58 GMT -5
I have a question on this: what rights, responsibilities, and privileges would come with personhood? What extra rules, if any, would be used for them for legal consent? Would they be allowed to vote, own property, and enter into contracts? Would emergency rooms have to give them treatment like they do for humans, and would doctors for them, being that they have different biology, be specialists or would classes for such become a part of basic medical training?
I agree that they shouldn't be treated the same as cows, chickens, and water buffalo, but without knowing what all comes with being a "person" I can't really give an opinion on if they should be classed as such.
|
|
|
Post by Napoleon the Clown on May 12, 2010 14:45:10 GMT -5
Dolphins are fucking brilliant. They appear to actually name each other. And use tools. And have communication complex enough it could be called language. So yeah, it's perfectly possibly they're the second most intelligent species on the planet.
Second being mice, of course.
|
|
|
Post by big_electron on May 12, 2010 15:07:27 GMT -5
Keeping chimps as pets is wrong. In the attacks, I believe that the chimp picks up on the fact that it is not an egalitarian relationship, and rebels.
I've heard of dolphin attacks too, but only confined dolphins attacking the trainer or human riding them. Dolphin wanted to tell someone that he's allergic to chlorine, the pool is too small, never gets vacations to see his family, "I've told them this a million times and they don't goddammotherfuking listen to me."
|
|
|
Post by Vene on May 12, 2010 15:13:19 GMT -5
Dolphins are fucking brilliant. They appear to actually name each other. And use tools. And have communication complex enough it could be called language. So yeah, it's perfectly possibly they're the second most intelligent species on the planet. Second being mice, of course. So, both dolphins and mice are the second most intelligent species? I think it's clear from this that Homo sapiens isn't the most intelligent species.
|
|