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Post by Sleepy on Apr 14, 2009 8:15:23 GMT -5
I also have trouble understanding why anyone would actually willingly have a child. I know I'll probably get bashed because of my young age, but even my friends are already discussing how many children they would like to have. It seems careless to choose such a thing so early in one's life. Plus I find it difficult to see children as something other than a nuisance. Please don't kill me.. I'm assuming I just don't understand it.
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Post by erictheblue on Apr 14, 2009 8:20:59 GMT -5
Is my kid whiny? Sometimes. Is he irrational sometimes? Yes. So are 99% of the adults I know, too. I'm not sure why people hold things like that against children, when that is usually the result of poor parenting. There's two abbrivations used in the CF community that diferentiate parenting, BNP (Breeder Not Parent) and PNB (Parent Not Breeder). PNB's take responsibility for their children, rather than letting them turn into uncontrolled monsters. BNP's do not. I agree that what many people call "bad kids" are actually the effects of "bad parents." I DO NOT mean "oh, little Jonny has a rough home life, so he'll come to a bad end." I am thinking more of the "father" who refused to calm his 3 screaming children (all under the age of about 7) in a buffet, even when asked politely by the server. I'm sure. It's just hard for me to imagine that someone who WANT to do that to themselves. ;D I'm not sure it is something that can be understood. I read the comments from parents in this thread (and from friends who have children and grandchildren), but they make no sense to me. All I can picture is screaming brats that I can't quiet and loss of freedom (call me immature if you want for that). I did say I give babies the benefit of the doubt when they cry. ;D
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 14, 2009 9:15:08 GMT -5
Bad parents are certainly worse than people not becoming parents at all. I have no argument there. And there are certainly very frustrating and difficult times as a parent that are just heartbreaking--sort of like being in love and having a big problem come up. So parenting is definitely not all sweetness and light. But I agree with the poster that compared it to one of the best experiences a human can have. I agree with that. You as an individual might not want that experience, in the same way I might not want a different experience, but that doesn't mean it can't be one of the best experiences a human can have.
I think one of the reasons that the pro side might appear "rabid" sometimes in their defense of themselves is that there are so many situations that are just plain old child and family unfriendly--lots of public buildings, transportation, jobs, employers, etc. Most of these places don't give a shit about your "personal" life, and they should. I think it's one of the reasons that society is as fucked up as it is. And then there are lots of people who are kid unfriendly as well--I'm not talking about the man who won't control his screaming children; I've cleaned up after that family and the mess they left myself once or twice in my time as a server. I'm talking about some of the other people who go crosseyed when a baby pipes up once or twice. Or someone who define normal crying that stops after a short while as some sort of "fit." Hell, there are people who just look at you funny for having a kid along with you, like it's some sort of dark and dirty hobby that we don't talk about in public. I think that's when parents and nonparents sort of square off and claim the other side are breeders or "don't get it."
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Post by Aqualung on Apr 14, 2009 9:18:43 GMT -5
There is NO better feeling than holding your child as she falls asleep, or actually feeling the kind of love that makes your heart physically want to burst from your body. They say you don't know true love until you have a child, and that is so true. People who have children know that feeling, those who don't, don't - it's not explainable. You are under the impression everyone wants a child. Honestly, the idea of having a kid makes me want to vomit. I know if I had a kid, I would end up in jail for child abuse because I expect children to act like rational human beings. Y halo thar. ~_^ What's your LJ name? You can PM me with it if you want. I find it frightening that there are more and more childfree people and yet people are crapping out kids in record numbers. Just, WTF?! Yeah, there's no reason to fear the human race dying out any time soon, and it wouldn't be entirely a bad thing if it did. I hate kids. I've said it before. They're annoying and self-centered by nature. I hate how most of them just stare at me if I ask what kind of cookie they want at my work. Not everyone loves being a parent. Anyone remember Andrea Yates?? And that's saying nothing about the havoc that pregnancy and childbirth wreaks on your body. DO NOT WANT!!
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Post by erictheblue on Apr 14, 2009 10:10:27 GMT -5
And there are certainly very frustrating and difficult times as a parent that are just heartbreaking--sort of like being in love and having a big problem come up. No doubt. I know I've put my parents through a few, and I'm sure I'll put them through more over time. As I said, I don't think one side can ever understand the other. Not that one side is right or wrong, just that we view things in such different ways. On the other hand, there are employers who are overly child-friendly. I know people who have had to work late (no OT) to cover for a co-worker (note I didn't say cow-orker) who had to rush off to their kid's band concert/ballet/martial arts test/etc. (Not that any of these are wrong! Parents SHOULD be at those things.) I'm not saying I wouldn't cover for a parent to go to their kid's whatever. But there are parents who take advantage of it. I don't agree. There are times and places where children just are not appropiate. But again, it comes down to if parents can (and will) control their kids. It is not my - or the waitress, or the voting clerks - job to control children. If children cannot be controled in an environment, they should not be in that environment. Just to clarify, by "controlled," I don't mean children should always stand right next to their parents and never make a sound. (I'm not so foolish as to believe that is always possible.) If the kid wanders away a few feet, fine. If the kid is playing with his/her toy cars on the floor, fine, so long as they aren't blocking the way for others or cauing a safety hazard. If the kids are running up and down the line, screaming at the top of their lungs and the parents make no effort to stop them, that is when I start getting annoyed. I'm sure. BTW, that issue was solved when several men in their 20s calmly approached the man and told him they had recently been released from prison for kidnapping and killing uncontrolled children. The man tried to call their bluff, but they didn't back down and he left very soon after. I know there are jerks of all kinds. "I know what you've been doing, Virgil. You're guilt is displayed beside you, and you seem to revel in your sin!"
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Post by schizophonic on Apr 14, 2009 10:17:54 GMT -5
There is NO better feeling than holding your child as she falls asleep, or actually feeling the kind of love that makes your heart physically want to burst from your body. They say you don't know true love until you have a child, and that is so true. People who have children know that feeling, those who don't, don't - it's not explainable. It's not explainable because it's not real. To say there's no better feeling is merely ignorance and self justification, a way certain breeders make themselves feel better. I mean, the notion, trite as it is that you won't know until you've tried it, is also destroyed by hose who have tried it and still don't know it. Sorry, this specious and exclusionary logic is one of my pet peeves.
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Post by rookie on Apr 14, 2009 12:40:55 GMT -5
Interesting question you posed there, Eric. One I'm not even going to attempt to answer. I will say I love being a father. The good, the bad, and the ugly. And your not wanting ever to be a parent is as alien to me as my saying I love of it. And on some level, I think we're just going to have to accept that we are wired differently.
I love my kids and my role in the family (specifically the role of father) but I can't tell you why. It's something I never thought about. I always just accepted it. I know that's less than no help to you but it is what it is.
Trillian, I know exactly what you are saying about there being no greater joy. I also understand who it is extremely difficult to verbalize the joys of parenthood. But I do think that the feelings needs a qualifier. "For those who enjoy raising kids, there is no better joy..." Feelings as a rule are very subjective. And to either say or imply yours would apply to everyone else (or, to a lessor degree, anyone else) is dangerous at best.
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shrike
Junior Member
Polyamorous Atheist
Posts: 56
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Post by shrike on Apr 14, 2009 13:16:32 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder how much wanting kids is a biological imparitive and how much is "well, this is what we are supposed to do." I'm in a few childfree communities on LiveJournal, and this comes up in discussion occasionally. When those of us who are childfree announce we are never having kids, we get told things like "oh, you'll change your mind" or "it's different when it's your kid." Having a kid is a HUGE decision because of the financial and time commitments, but it seems like those who do not want to take on those commitments - for whatever reason - are seen as "abnormal" and "lesser." I feel exactly the same way. I've never wanted kids. I dated a woman for a few weeks who was hell bent on having kids. Just on her own, she's in fairly dire straights financially, barely able to make her house payments and bills on her own, and not enough money left over for anything extra. She has serious emotional and mental problems that she refuses to acknowledge, and has some health related issues. She's not at all affectionate, and seemed to view me and a means to an end more than a person to be with. She always complained about never having any time or money to get out of the house and do anything. Yet, she has it in her head that she just has to have a baby and having a baby will magically fix all of her problems. She is pregnant now, is not sure who the father is, and is getting all of her medical expenses paid by the state because she cannot afford them herself. Societal pressure is the only explanation I can conceive for her attitude.
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Post by peanutfan on Apr 14, 2009 13:17:27 GMT -5
Add me to the "no breeding, ever" crowd. I freely acknowledge that I have neither the patience nor the temprament to successfully raise a child.
This is going to make me unpopular, but I would support a government program that licensed people to breed. I've seen FAR too many BNPs (thanks for the new abbreviation) to think this would be a bad idea. When a child runs around a library screaming at the top of their lungs until staff have to ask the whole family to leave, including the humiliated-looking seven-year-old who was actually trying to expand their mind...yeah. I'm sorry, but I already feel like I'm living in the movie "Idiocracy" half the time; I don't want it to become reality.
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Post by Aqualung on Apr 14, 2009 15:30:15 GMT -5
Hmm, there seem to be quite a few of us on here. ^_^ Yeah, the financial burden is also a huge issue for me. Dammit, I (technically) have THREE jobs and I'm STILL not making any money. If I had a kid I'd really be fucked, so I wouldn't have one even if I wanted one. I'm also all in favor of having mandatory breeding licensing. ;D shrike: I'm sorry you had to put up with that lunacy; she only saw you as a sperm donor.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Apr 14, 2009 15:34:39 GMT -5
Meh, I hate children, and I don't understand why people have such a fascination with having more and more of the little fuckers >.<
I also don't understand the desire to get married either but I suppose that's another issue altogether.....
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Apr 14, 2009 15:39:42 GMT -5
There is NO better feeling than holding your child as she falls asleep, or actually feeling the kind of love that makes your heart physically want to burst from your body. How about heroin?
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Post by szaleniec on Apr 14, 2009 15:47:00 GMT -5
If or when I have the energy, commitment and money to give a child the kind of upbringing I'd want to give them, I wouldn't hesitate. Until then, no thanks. Realistically I don't see myself having kids until I'm into my 30s at least, and I know a lot of people my age who feel likewise.
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Post by Thejebusfire on Apr 14, 2009 15:51:54 GMT -5
I would like to have one child one day. But no more.
What I don't understand are these couples who want to have baby after baby after baby.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 14, 2009 15:52:18 GMT -5
OK, here's what I don't get, and I'm asking this without any sense of anger, just confusion. For those of you who claim you "hate" children, what on earth makes you say that? It sounds like you're basically saying you "hate" humanity in general. What is innately wrong with children? How is that any different from saying "I hate old people" or "I hate Mexicans" or something? I have no plans on having more children, and my husband, who is not my child's biological father, also has no plans to have biological children. But we don't hate kids; in fact, we're very supportive of the neighborhood kids, even though we don't want any (or more in my case) of our own. We're supportive of other people's kids, and we take time to try to impact their lives in some way--for one thing because they grow up to inherit the jobs of the world. These are your future doctors, teachers, politicians, etc. You get what you put into them. I don't see how not wanting to "breed" and being nice to kids (which you're implying you're not, if you say you "hate" them) are mutually exclusive concepts.
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