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Post by devilschaplain2 on Apr 14, 2009 16:54:48 GMT -5
But that's a race compared to a stage in a human's life.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 14, 2009 16:59:20 GMT -5
Yes. It's lumping an entire group of people together based on only one characteristic. When employers do it to old people, it's called "age discrimination." Just because the characteristic is different doesn't mean it isn't a bigoted thing to say.
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Post by Aqualung on Apr 14, 2009 17:00:37 GMT -5
I suppose you can't understand it any more than we can understand people who think children are the best things since sliced bread.
Also, come on. Most people are at least a LITTLE bit bigoted against something or other, but no one wants to admit it.
For the record, I would never hurt a child, but I just really don't want to have anything to do with them.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Apr 14, 2009 17:02:47 GMT -5
Yes. It's lumping an entire group of people together based on only one characteristic. When employers do it to old people, it's called "age discrimination." And yet the elderly actually have personalities and aren't always crying (like in restaurants....). Toddlers and babies have no personalities, at that stage in a person's life they're basically the same. Eat, sleep, void their bowels, spit up, scream, cry, etc. I just don't find your comparison between race and age (especially children) compelling.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Apr 14, 2009 17:03:44 GMT -5
I suppose so.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 14, 2009 17:06:40 GMT -5
Please don't reduce the argument to something it isn't. I understand perfectly well why people would not want to have children. As I continue to repeat, I do not want to have more children and my husband does not want any biological children. We have lots of friends who want to remain purposefully childless as well. None of these people are making that choice because they "hate" children. What I do not understand is why people would claim to hate an entire demographic based on faulty generalizations of an entire group of people. That's what I'm asking about. Whether most people are a "little bit bigoted" is beside the point--isn't the point to become more humane as we progress as a species? I'm certainly not saying everyone should start loving children and run out and adopt. What does surprise and shock me is that the reasons some people are giving as to why they do not want to have children seem to have nothing to do with their personal ambitions (we have plenty of friends who want to do things that are not conducive to raising families) nor with their own estimations of what kind of parent they would be. Not even with just the simple desire not to have kids. It's because they hate an entire group of people based on generalizations that, if you change "kids" to some other group of people, would get them shouted down in outrage by others on this forum. That dumbfounds me just a little bit.
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Post by Aqualung on Apr 14, 2009 17:08:46 GMT -5
Well, I guess I can't answer that DV. :/
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 14, 2009 17:08:48 GMT -5
Toddlers and babies have plenty of personality and the variations are wide. There are some babies who cry rarely, and only then out of discomfort. By the way, some grown people cry out of pain and discomfort, too. Some babies and toddlers cry all the time--much the same way that some adults bitch all the time. You can choose to continue to believe in a generalization, but people who work with children, have children of their own, and generally spend a lot of time around them can tell you that simply isn't true.
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Post by Bluefinger on Apr 14, 2009 17:10:42 GMT -5
I suppose you can't understand it any more than we can understand people who think children are the best things since sliced bread. Also, come on. Most people are at least a LITTLE bit bigoted against something or other, but no one wants to admit it.For the record, I would never hurt a child, but I just really don't want to have anything to do with them. Just because most people are a little bigoted against something doesn't justify the 'bigotry' in any sense. That is an argument from majority, because you are ultimately trying to justify a potential irrationality on the basis that a significant number of people share irrationalities (of any kind). The issue still comes down to why, and in this particular bit, you kinda try to paint an irrationality as being okay on the basis that other people are irrational too. Now, an irrational belief/feeling/etc can be okay on its own and according to whether it has any actual negative consequence. To try and make it seem okay by using other's irrationalities (which may have more negative consequences than yours) does nothing to validate your point. And yet the elderly actually have personalities and aren't always crying (like in restaurants....). Toddlers and babies have no personalities, at that stage in a person's life they're basically the same. Eat, sleep, void their bowels, spit up, scream, cry, etc. I just don't find your comparison between race and age (especially children) compelling. The problem here is that the one's who usually end up crying are the ones who need the proper attention from the parents. Even a toddler can behave just fine in a restaurant, given that the parent is not a useless one. Again, all this seems to me is a consequence of shitty parenting.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Apr 14, 2009 17:11:36 GMT -5
Toddlers and babies have plenty of personality and the variations are wide. If they do, I haven't seen it.... Yes, but they can tell me what's wrong (and I can be reasonably certain that it doesn't involve them thinking there's a monster under their bed, or them losing their favorite toy, or some character dying in a Disney movie....)
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Post by Jebediah on Apr 14, 2009 17:14:35 GMT -5
Yes. It's lumping an entire group of people together based on only one characteristic. When employers do it to old people, it's called "age discrimination." And yet the elderly actually have personalities and aren't always crying (like in restaurants....). Toddlers and babies have no personalities, at that stage in a person's life they're basically the same. Eat, sleep, void their bowels, spit up, scream, cry, etc. I just don't find your comparison between race and age (especially children) compelling. I've known many toddlers and babies in my life, and I've spent lots of time with them. It's true they all do the same basic things, but if you spend enough time with them and get to know them, you begin to see they all have very distinct personalities.
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Post by Aqualung on Apr 14, 2009 17:23:37 GMT -5
By the way, some grown people cry out of pain and discomfort, too. Yes, but they can tell me what's wrong (and I can be reasonably certain that it doesn't involve them thinking there's a monster under their bed, or them losing their favorite toy, or some character dying in a Disney movie....) Also, when adults cry they usually don't SCREAM like a stuck pig!
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 14, 2009 17:58:14 GMT -5
I didn't think I'd want kids, partially because I was pretty sure I'd make a bad father and partially because they just seem like a pain in the ass hassle, but when I was 18 my girlfriend got pregnant and we put the child up for adoption. The adoptive family sends us letters and pictures and it reduces me to a sobbing wreck on a regular basis because I want so badly to be a part of her life, whether that's seeing her succeed at school or just weathering her tantrums. Instinct, I guess.
I recall once reading a story about a couple who couldn't conceive because the wife had some health problem that prevented her carrying a baby to term or had had a hysterectomy or something, and eventually they got a surrogate mother. And one part of the story was about how the husband's friends would say things like "at least you don't have to worry about morning sickness or 2am drives to sate cravings" and other such things, and to the reporter the guy said something like "I laugh along with them, but really that sucks. I want to be dealing with those things, too." I understand that sentiment perfectly.
That said, I don't think I'll ever have another child. I'm pretty sure now that I wouldn't make a very good father, simply because of the pain I'm still carrying around from the adoption. I don't think that'll ever go away, either.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 14, 2009 19:01:42 GMT -5
Toddlers and babies have plenty of personality and the variations are wide. If they do, I haven't seen it.... So...lack of personal empirical evidence makes you ... right? Think about what you're saying here. It's possible that says more about your powers of observation than it does about an entire demographic of human beings. I do not mean that as a cut or a dig at you. But think about the implications of what you're saying when you say that. And sometimes adults cry for absolutely no reason they are able to express to you. Sometimes they scream like "stuck pigs." Sometimes adults also cry out of paranoia or a misunderstanding of the world around them. Sometimes adults cry at movies. Sometimes adults cry out of abject fear. All the things above that you listed as reasons for hating children apply equally to adults. It's your application that is unequal. Children need other understanding adults in their lives besides parents. When teenagers feel rejected and do psychotic things (something that the majority of them do not do) it is often because they feel very disconnected from society. One of the reasons that might be the case is because of the intense irrational prejudice people have against children's presence in their company. Just a thought.
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Post by Aqualung on Apr 14, 2009 19:47:00 GMT -5
I don't think there is any right or wrong answer to this. For some people, parenting IS the best thing in the world. TO THEM. And that's fine. (To a point. Like the Duggars, but I'm not sure I'd consider what they're doing 'parenting'.)
I think the bigger problem is society telling us childfree that we are wrong or crazy for choosing not to have kids, or even not liking them. Why is it so bad?? Especially with the world's population at ~6.7 BILLION and growing every second...
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