MA fundie thinks woman should leave armed forces

[tgrwulf]

www.lowellsun.com/letters/ci_17135872

It has to be obvious to anyone reading the article that the 40-year experiment expanding the role of women in today's military has been an abject failure. Like other liberal policies, however, instead of simply acknowledging that something just will not work and ending it, further meddling must be done in order to force the square peg into the round hole. Reading the statistics cited in the article, it must be obvious to anyone that the nature of men and women is such that the two are incompatible in the closely knit, male-oriented world of the military. Thus, no matter what new guidelines are created, no matter how many lawyers are hired, or how many sensitivity sessions soldiers are forced to attend, nothing will change. We will still be talking about harassment issues, rapes and assaults to the dignity of women 10 years from now ... likely when the ultimate solution to the problem will finally be suggested: Bar all men from the military. Easy! The bottom line is that like so many other liberal policies that have been implemented over the last few decades, from welfare to women in the military, this is not only a failing proposition but actually a dangerous one. It weakens national security at a time of growing threats from Islamic radicalism to Red China to a resurgent Russia to nuclear proliferation

The comment section is pretty damn facepalm worthy in it's own right as well.

www.topix.net/forum/source/lowell-sun/T2K2BCD8SF018PFGE

I'm amazed that people are like this, even in one of the most supposedly progressive states in the country.

[Shane for Wax]

Someone needs to do some history of the world, methinks.

[ironbite]

40...year...experiment? You know something....if you're running an experiment for 40 years...I think it ended awhile ago.

Ironbite-dumb ass.

[anti-nonsense]

Jan 20, 2011 1:27:47 GMT -5 ironbite said:

40...year...experiment? You know something....if you're running an experiment for 40 years...I think it ended awhile ago.

Ironbite-dumb ass.

Not necessarily true, there have been scientific experiments that have been running for many decades.

howevr, this guy IS A dumbass. A hint, dumbass, the reason the military still has a problem with rape and harassment is because of dumbasses like you.

[georgebullocks]

To be fair, what he said is that "Military should reduce role of women", and I completely agree that war is no women's business and female members of the military should be confined to non-combat duties away from frontlines.

[Magnizeal]

Jan 20, 2011 2:06:53 GMT -5 georgebullocks said:

To be fair, what he said is that "Military should reduce role of women", and I completely agree that war is no women's business and female members of the military should be confined to non-combat duties away from frontlines.

And that is misogyny. If war is no woman's business, then war is no man's business either. Women can fight just as well as men, and it's people trying to 'shield' and 'protect' women that lead to the idea of women being items, less then men, or some kind of perfect doll, or child.

In short, shut up until you can work out why you make feminists like me angry.

[gyeonghwa]

Jan 20, 2011 2:34:44 GMT -5 Magnizeal said:

Jan 20, 2011 2:06:53 GMT -5 georgebullocks said:

To be fair, what he said is that "Military should reduce role of women", and I completely agree that war is no women's business and female members of the military should be confined to non-combat duties away from frontlines.

And that is misogyny. If war is no woman's business, then war is no man's business either. Women can fight just as well as men, and it's people trying to 'shield' and 'protect' women that lead to the idea of women being items, less then men, or some kind of perfect doll, or child.

In short, shut up until you can work out why you make feminists like me angry.

Ditto. It demeans women. The idea that women must be "protected" has historically been use to justify women as second class and even less than human.

Edit: I'm the king of non-standard grammar -_-

[stormwarden]

GeorgeBullocks:

Lydia Litvyak would like to have a word with you.

badassoftheweek.com/litvyak.html

So would Khawla bint al-Azwar: badassoftheweek.com/khawla.html

Augustina de Aragon: badassoftheweek.com/agustina.html

So would Anna Yegorova: www.badassoftheweek.com/yegorova.html

[georgebullocks]

Jan 20, 2011 2:34:44 GMT -5 Magnizeal said:

Jan 20, 2011 2:06:53 GMT -5 georgebullocks said:

To be fair, what he said is that "Military should reduce role of women", and I completely agree that war is no women's business and female members of the military should be confined to non-combat duties away from frontlines.

Women can fight just as well as men,

Except that they can't? War is a physical endeavor, and women are just not as physically capable as men. It's not misogyny, it's biological fact that women have smaller muscle mass and what not.

Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces (report date November 15, 1992, published in book form by Brassey's in 1993): "The average female Army recruit is 4.8 inches shorter, 31.7 pounds lighter, has 37.4 fewer pounds of muscle, and 5.7 more pounds of fat than the average male recruit. She has only 55 percent of the upper-body strength and 72 percent of the lower-body strength¡­ An Army study of 124 men and 186 women done in 1988 found that women are more than twice as likely to suffer leg injuries and nearly five times as likely to suffer [stress] fractures as men."

Further: "The Commission heard an abundance of expert testimony about the physical differences between men and women that can be summarized as follows:

"Women's aerobic capacity is significantly lower, meaning they cannot carry as much as far as fast as men, and they are more susceptible to fatigue.

"In terms of physical capability, the upper five percent of women are at the level of the male median. The average 20-to-30 year-old woman has the same aerobic capacity as a 50 year-old man."

From the same report: "Lt Col. William Gregor, United States Army, testified before the Commission regarding a survey he conducted at an Army ROTC Advanced Summer Camp on 623 women and 3540 men. ¡­Evidence Gregor presented to the Commission includes:

"(a) Using the standard Army Physical Fitness Test, he found that the upper quintile of women at West point achieved scores on the test equivalent to the bottom quintile of men.

"(c) Only 21 women out of the initial 623 (3.4%) achieved a score equal to the male mean score of 260.

"(d) On the push-up test, only seven percent of women can meet a score of 60, while 78 percent of men exceed it.

"(e) Adopting a male standard of fitness at West Point would mean 70 percent of the women he studied would be separated as failures at the end of their junior year, only three percent would be eligible for the Recondo badge, and not one would receive the Army Physical Fitness badge¡­."

Also, the zeitgeist, our society grooms women to be nurturers and men into aggressors very early in life. Even among parents who were attempting a gender-neutral upbringing (dolls and trucks, yellow or green walls in the nursery, etc.), parents and other caregivers, and even strangers in public, would compliment female children on being pretty and well-mannered and taking care of others, while they would compliment male children on being resilient and brave and taking initiative. Generations upon generations of these social morals leak into even the most well-meaning households and quickly begin to shape the foundation of a young child's sense of accomplishment and self-worth, so I don't think women today would take war that well mentally, too.

[georgebullocks]

Jan 20, 2011 2:56:37 GMT -5 stormwarden said:

GeorgeBullocks:

Lydia Litvyak would like to have a word with you.

badassoftheweek.com/litvyak.html

So would Khawla bint al-Azwar: badassoftheweek.com/khawla.html

Augustina de Aragon: badassoftheweek.com/agustina.html

So would Anna Yegorova: www.badassoftheweek.com/yegorova.html

Individual examples are worthless dude, doesn't help that 2 out of your 4 examples are folklore characters whose endeavors are impossible to verify, probably distorted and glorified, provided that they even existed in the first place.

[Lucifer]

Jan 20, 2011 3:20:56 GMT -5 georgebullocks said:

Jan 20, 2011 2:56:37 GMT -5 stormwarden said:

GeorgeBullocks:

Lydia Litvyak would like to have a word with you.

badassoftheweek.com/litvyak.html

So would Khawla bint al-Azwar: badassoftheweek.com/khawla.html

Augustina de Aragon: badassoftheweek.com/agustina.html

So would Anna Yegorova: www.badassoftheweek.com/yegorova.html

Individual examples are worthless dude, doesn't help that 2 out of your 4 examples are folklore characters whose endeavors are impossible to verify, probably distorted and glorified, provided that they even existed in the first place.

So


Ahhotep,
Joan of Arc,
Atermisia,
Cloelila,
Boadicea,
Fu Hao,
Shammuramast
Tomyris
Hind al Hunnud
Cleophis
Amage
Stateira_II
Timycha
Fu_Hao
Telesilla

to name a few are all just legends then.

edit: adding a few more

Amastris
more on her
Kahina

Cwenthryth
Ethelfeda


In fact here is a page of medieval women in warfare. type ancient were the medieval is and you get the list for ancient women in warfare. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women_in_early_modern_warfare for early warfare of the modern age.

[Shane for Wax]

I'll give you someone who would pistol whip you the second you opened your mouth: Lyudmila Pavlichenko. Heard of her? Killed 309 German soldiers in WW2. Best female sniper out there and in the top 10 best snipers in history. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

Women and men if they were to grow up in the same situations would develop the same amount of muscle mass. Women make much better snipers than men. Did you know that? I bet you didn't. Because you have it in your little mind that women are not as good as men. I know people like you. My boss is someone who insists women are less than men.

It is the woman's choice if she wishes to defend her country. The moment you start making decisions for her is the moment you practice misogyny.

There's also this woman: www.badassoftheweek.com/matilda.html
and: www.badassoftheweek.com/sandes.html
and: www.badassoftheweek.com/rani.html
oh, and: www.badassoftheweek.com/duston.html
Let's not forget this lady: www.badassoftheweek.com/hachette.html

All would like a nice little chat with you.

[Art Vandelay]

Jan 20, 2011 3:13:40 GMT -5 georgebullocks said:

Jan 20, 2011 2:34:44 GMT -5 Magnizeal said:

Women can fight just as well as men,

Except that they can't? War is a physical endeavor, and women are just not as physically capable as men. It's not misogyny, it's biological fact that women have smaller muscle mass and what not.

Even assuming you're correct for a second, so what? They're still able to aim a gun and pull a trigger, so what's the problem?

[georgebullocks]

Jan 20, 2011 4:54:37 GMT -5 Shane for Wax said:

I'll give you someone who would pistol whip you the second you opened your mouth: Lyudmila Pavlichenko. Heard of her? Killed 309 German soldiers in WW2. Best female sniper out there and in the top 10 best snipers in history. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

SOVIET PROPAGANDA. And a single specimen doesn't prove anything, statistics, please.

Women and men if they were to grow up in the same situations would develop the same amount of muscle mass.

Well, statistics show that women on average have less muscle mass and more body fat percentage than men. Either most of the women don't grow up in same situation as boys, or what you're saying is wrong. Again, read that Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces thing I just posted.

Women make much better snipers than men. Did you know that?

A citation would be nice.

I bet you didn't. Because you have it in your little mind that women are not as good as men. I know people like you. My boss is someone who insists women are less than men.

Nope, I have it in my little mind that women are, on average, physically inferior to men, which is backed by scientific evidence and statistics rather than my own prejudices.

[georgebullocks]

Jan 20, 2011 5:18:01 GMT -5 Art Vandelay said:

Jan 20, 2011 3:13:40 GMT -5 georgebullocks said:

Except that they can't? War is a physical endeavor, and women are just not as physically capable as men. It's not misogyny, it's biological fact that women have smaller muscle mass and what not.

Even assuming you're correct for a second, so what? They're still able to aim a gun and pull a trigger, so what's the problem?

I can't tell if you're being deliberately facetious, but wars are more than just squeezing triggers. You'll have to march several miles with 50kg of equipment and filling sandbags and digging foxholes and whatnot. All of which are very physically demanding.