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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 7, 2011 3:27:47 GMT -5
Additionally, the fact that it's CHURCH VOLUNTEERS is kind of a big tip-off. Ordinarily, I don't have much respect for theologists, but they're at least trained to know their bullshit. A church volunteer is more likely to parrot his pastor, be uneducated about his own religion, & be much more personally invested, which leads to the aforementioned preaching & ostracization.
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 7, 2011 3:31:40 GMT -5
I really don't see the issue. I think you see the issue as clear as day, just as clearly as you enjoy playing the perverse, bloody-minded contrarian! Ah, the good old maths and engineering paradigm. Because fuck the humanities, right? "In the corridor"? Because these schools don't have libraries or other legitimate study spaces? If so, I think there are more significant problems than RE!OK, valid point... but surely that is a problem with the school, not religious instruction. Again... does the straw man-ing help? [/li][li][/quote]What government money? I thought the instructors were volunteers? [/li][/ul] Sorry. Not really.
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Post by jackmann on Aug 7, 2011 3:42:02 GMT -5
Honestly, I'd feel better about this sort of thing if it were taught by actual teachers, with the members of the various religions brought in as "guest lecturers." That way, there'd be better control over the actual course of instruction to ensure more even time for different religions, as well as, hopefully, a control to keep it educational, rather than evangelistic. I do think learning about other religions is a good idea. People should know that other people hold different beliefs, without it being shown as wrong. This just looks very prone to abuse.
Of course, there's also the problem of teachers pushing their own religion into the class. But at least there's some accountability there.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Aug 7, 2011 3:45:24 GMT -5
I don't care if it was Paganism being taught, religion should stay out of the schools unless it's elective courses at the high school or college level.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 7, 2011 4:01:11 GMT -5
It is the school's fault. And the legislators' fault. And the evangelists' fault.
The school can't take the blame for everything. From what I gather, the law is on these groups' side, even if they claim not to be. The school can't do much about that, & so has to tolerate them shitting all over their institution. But, all that aside, it still comes down to the fact that the evangelists don't have to be cockburgers in the first place.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Aug 7, 2011 4:05:52 GMT -5
Ah, the good old maths and engineering paradigm. Because fuck the humanities, right? I think the point was that governments schools in a secular state have to place bringing in volunteers to preach to the students.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 7, 2011 4:09:34 GMT -5
And now that I think about it, how does religious study benefit the humanities, anyway? All you get is...religious teachers. At least English can be applied to other fields, but with religious studies, all you can do is raise MORE teachers. It doesn't give anything back except maybe if the person opts to become a chaplain. And someone who deliberately goes out of their way to schedule religious studies is much more likely to do this than someone who just has it forced on them.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Aug 7, 2011 4:14:20 GMT -5
And now that I think about it, how does religious study benefit the humanities, anyway? All you get is...religious teachers. At least English can be applied to other fields, but with religious studies, all you can do is raise MORE teachers. It doesn't give anything back except maybe if the person opts to become a chaplain. And someone who deliberately goes out of their way to schedule religious studies is much more likely to do this than someone who just has it forced on them. Because learning fairy tales somehow prepares these kids for the real world. Especially if these fairy tales are taught as fact.
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Aug 7, 2011 4:14:48 GMT -5
Ah, the good old maths and engineering paradigm. Because fuck the humanities, right? There are qualified humanities teachers, history teachers, teachers with a philosophy or politics background. All of whom would serve the kids much better in teaching about religion as an academic subject as opposed to teaching them to be religious in a supposedly secular setting. Because these schools don't have libraries or other legitimate study spaces? From the article, in case you missed it. If there's any hay in there please point it out! Somehow this idiotic program manages to cost $200 million a year, volunteers or no. That would be the selective blindness that comes with being a contrarian, if you lost it you'd need a new hobby!
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Post by jackmann on Aug 7, 2011 4:14:52 GMT -5
Well, like I said, I think kids should be shown that other people have different beliefs, and that it's not a bad thing. I think a lot of problems people have with critical thinking comes down to thinking that if someone believes differently, they're automatically wrong. This pattern comes up in religion, politics, RPG edition wars... I think if kids were shown that other people had different beliefs, without being told that those beliefs were necessarily wrong, or that they were bad people for having those beliefs, could do them good.
I don't think that's what's happening here, though.
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Aug 7, 2011 4:21:51 GMT -5
I would absolutely support a government funded subject about religion taught in schools, no question about it. It's the proselytizing on students time and the taxpayers funds that I dislike.
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 7, 2011 4:31:52 GMT -5
And now that I think about it, how does religious study benefit the humanities, anyway? All you get is...religious teachers. At least English can be applied to other fields, but with religious studies, all you can do is raise MORE teachers. It doesn't give anything back except maybe if the person opts to become a chaplain. And someone who deliberately goes out of their way to schedule religious studies is much more likely to do this than someone who just has it forced on them. You don't think having a decent understanding of other people's religious beliefs is potentially worthwhile?
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 7, 2011 4:34:16 GMT -5
Where is preaching/proselytising mentioned in the article?
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 7, 2011 4:38:37 GMT -5
First of all, that's not what's going on here, second of all, not enough to devote an hour (hour & a half?) of required time to it.
You know the funny thing about electives? They're ALL potentially useful. Music is a potentially useful skill. Philosophy is potentially useful knowledge. But there are only so many hours of the day, & their uses aren't as widespread as English, history, or math.
With religion, it it's just about impossible to cover every aspect of every existing belief, & you can live your whole life just fine without knowing anything about religion, in most cases. Even if you work in a setting with a religious person, it shouldn't come up enough for it to be an issue.
Do you not have the ability to read between the lines? Who fucking comes out & says, "Yes, we are forcefully indoctrinating children."
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Post by lighthorseman on Aug 7, 2011 4:54:12 GMT -5
"Read between the lines" huh?
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