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Post by Redhunter on Oct 14, 2009 5:03:34 GMT -5
Just in case anyone was hoping for me to say something here, I'm not really going to participate. Just going to say I love my culture, and that suicide is simply the last refuge of the weak-minded no matter what country you come from. Virginia Woolf Earnest Hemmingway Boudicca James Whale Cleopatra Decebal Maximian Sarah Marple-Cantrell Chris McKinstry Edwin Howard Armstrong James Robert Baker Wallace Carothers Are you actually saying that all these were all “weak-minded people”? That is an incredibly narrow view of suicide. Suicide isn’t always simply about not being able to “hack it”.
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Post by Redhunter on Oct 1, 2009 5:57:59 GMT -5
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Post by Redhunter on Sept 8, 2009 5:13:41 GMT -5
Granted, all you stated here made me laugh till I teared up, but you had a strategizing, lyrical cat "a with a sense of comedic timing"? What was it... the feline version of the secretly vaudevillian frog from the old WB cartoon?
Wow. Congrats. That was seriously one of the most absolute asanine things I've ever heard in my life. I would not knock Skyfire's cat's abilities, I have seen and heard cats speak, I owned one myself, a Manx off color who we named Sylvester, knew how to say my sister and mine's name, the word "no" and cried like a baby when it was bathed. He also knew how to open doors and even the fridge. So I would say there are some cats out there that have a surprising modicrum of intelligence that is canny. It is brave of you to jump in to defend the ravings of a fundie but then again so is leaping on a live hand grenade but it doesn’t make it any less painful when it blows up in your face.
Firstly sky is making claims that go against what is currently known of the abilities of cats.
Secondly, skyfire is a fundie with an agenda who quite often lies and/or has supported ideas that are at best howlingly archaic and wildly stunted and at worst have been possibly intentionally inflammatory, utterly baseless as well as intelligence crippling, coffee-spewingly retarded.
Thirdly cats still do not talk in the way that humans do, they simply do NOT. This has been covered earlier in the thread, as was the “working knowledge of doorknobs” claim. Many, many animals can navigate a room or building including opening cupboards or doors or windows through basic intelligence and mimicry but that doesn’t make them smart enough to understand what they are doing. If that were the case, I’m guessing that there would probably be more than simple wire fences to contain most farm animals.
F’rinstance: One of my cats had a particular whine to her mewls and at times it sounded as if she said words. Thing is, all the words were variations of that tone she made. Thusly, she was not saying, ‘Morose’, ‘Madrid’, ‘Marriot’, ‘Mellow’, ‘Moron’ or any such silliness.
ME: Hey, Audry; what’s that material inside of bones? AUDRY: MARROW! ME: Audry, what’s your favourite type of wine? AUDRY: MERLOT! ME: Audry, what kind of cigarettes am I holding up? AUDRY: MARLBORO! ME: See! She’s the smartest cat ever!
Ever see ‘Disturbia’ where the kid in Spanish class says ‘Quizas’ repeatedly (to laughter from the class) simply because it sounds LIKE ‘kiss-ass’? That’s pretty much the same thing. He didn’t get in trouble because he wasn’t really swearing and your cat isn’t famous because he isn’t really speaking.
So if any of you guys who claim to have speaking cats who may or may not have a sense of comedic timing, the ability to understand the mechanics behind man-made inventions such as doorknobs or make long term plans that do not involve the inborn instinctual “plans” that most animals make, please put up or shut up because like the fundies, the onus is on those who make the asinine claims.
Someone mentioned that the word, ‘anthropomorphism’ gets thrown around or used a lot but not nearly as much as the actual act of anthropomorphism is used. And if the word is apt and used appropriately in a situation as it was here, then it matters not one solitary squirt from Francis The Talking Mule how much it used elsewhere and it most assuredly doesn’t mean that Francis understands the intricacies of a two-point conversion.
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Post by Redhunter on Aug 24, 2009 7:42:02 GMT -5
just thought with his long term planning abilities he'd be doing stuff that takes long term planning abilities. which kinda begs the question How do you know he had such abilities? and did I tell you, my cat Oscar would give us Shakespearean soliloquys. though he usually went only as far as the first word of Richard III Yeah, mine was that way too. Must've been out of the same batch. He always had a problem with one cat plays too. He'd memorize his lines, hit his marks and did an outstanding job but his voices aways all seemed to sound like the same character. Really takes one out of the moment, you know?
Sure wish he had made some long-term plans to go back to school and get that accounting degree. I told him his decision to put school off in order to tour Europe as a roadie for MudVayne for a year was a bad one. And now after that stint on One Life To Live fell through due to his inability to hide his accent (he's irish) he kind of fell in with a bad crowd of guilt-wracked, financially unstable pyromaniac ferrets and emotionally-crippled heroin-addicted hamsters with deep-seated oedipal complexes and filthy sailor mouths. He did learn a lot of good jokes from them but he now says that he is feels convinced he is a gay female trapped in a Tom's body. He already has body image issues so we're gonna have a long talk about it all over strawberry daiquiris and Arturo Fuentes as soon as he finishes up fixing the brakelines on his chopper.
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Post by Redhunter on Aug 24, 2009 7:06:22 GMT -5
Red, maybe all of your cats were just boring ... Possible, but I'm leaning towards the fantasical stories being assmined. Or the necessary requirements for cats to display such a level of intellect were lacking. yeah... probably because it was a fucking cat.
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Post by Redhunter on Aug 24, 2009 5:21:21 GMT -5
Well, Red, I'm glad that you found a solution to your depression. Everyone chooses their own path, and if your path is atheism far be it from me to criticize you for it. It seems you arrived at that decision after a long struggle, and I hope it has brought you a measure of peace. I'm not going to get into any kind of long discussion with you on these things, partly because I don't really believe you have any interest in me or my well being (if I'm wrong, I apologize, but based on the contact I have had with you, you just don't seem like the compassionate type--that's not a criticism or a condemnation, just an observation), and partly because I just don't think you are really interested in listening to anything I have to say. You made your position clear, and you have made your disdain for any faith, even one as unconventional and free-thinking as mine, very clear as well. I do not think my faith has anything to do with my depression, nor does my difficulty with the church-political have anything to do with my faith. I am not fond of the church-political. But the human organization known as the "church" is not the same thing as my faith. I thought I was very clear on that. You are not going to deconvert me, nor are you going to convince me that my faith is the source of my depression. The source of my depression is our failure to have any children that survived, my struggle with prostate cancer, my financial uncertainties in this world that Bush-Cheny made for us, my enui with my job after 3 decades, my arthritis, the bone spurs in my back making me miss the Ohio Scottish Games for the first time in twenty years, the death of my brother, and the murder of a favorite former student of mine. See, I know exactly where my depression is coming from, and it's certainly not my faith. I take no comfort from the church. I do not trust the church. But the church is not my faith. If you listen to anything I say, at least listen to that. Wow. Well, to further my honesty on this, you don’t seem to think well of me at all since you’ve basically taken my personal story and direct answer to your question and called it “mocking” and are now alluding that I’m not worth talking to because I don’t actually care about anyone. Wow. Did you really just dehumanize me as an uncaring troll when I was offering my take on dealing with my depression, just as you asked in your opening question? I know you’re depressed but you are imagining that I’m launching an attack on you. Your consequent responses to me based on this erroneous assumption are quite insulting and unnecessary. For someone who doesn’t want “to get into any kind of long discussion” with me “on these things” you’ve had plenty to say to me, but nothing that was really warranted or accurate.
You think I’m mocking you, you think I’m basically trolling you because you think I am faking concern, I suppose that means you think I’m just lying to you about all of this then since you think I don’t mean any of it and/or don’t really care, you think I’m assuming things about your faith, you basically think I’m self-centered and/or a sociopath (that’s the definition of someone who has nothing but disdain for everyone else which is what you are implying) and you also think I’m trying to deconvert you… I really don’t know where you are getting any of this but you are bafflingly and completely off the mark. But I won’t attempt to explain my simple words further as you’ve made your feelings towards me quite clear.
Though I find it odd that you’d spend so many paragraphs telling me how little you think of me and how little you plan on talking to me about the subject.
In the future, perhaps you can just go ahead and tell us up front in the op which posters you’d rather not listen to? That way we can avoid being politely dismissed and insulted for no apparent reason other than you don’t like us personally. Or backhanded comments like, ‘it’s great you’re happy being an atheist, but I don’t trust you, don’t like or believe you and I think you are lying that you’re concerned because you are only here trying to drive a wedge between me and my faith so after these accusations I’m not going to discuss any of this with you’. I thought you were seriously asking a serious question about a very serious subject that I feel strongly about and that was what I was responding to. How wrong I was in that assumption.
Here’s a quick recap list:
I’m not mocking. I DO care. I was being honest so please don't equate seperate takes on a subject to lying or arguing or mocking. I'm not wrong because we have difference stances, we simply have differing stances. I’m not trying to deconvert you because as an atheist I don’t really care a jot nor a whittle what you worship so long as it doesn’t interfere with my life, which your faith does not. I didn’t say that your church was the same as your faith, I said it was interesting the situation you are in and then I explained exactly why I found it interesting. Just because I don’t “buy” your personal brand of faith, doesn’t mean I’m making fun of you by discussing it because if that were the case then no religion would be able to discuss any other religions either without being accused of “mocking”. I didn’t put forth my personal story as an answer or as THE answer; I merely presented it as the personal story that it is. I never assumed I knew the reasons for your depression therefore I was not belittling your past experiences or issues. I didn’t pretend to assume anything about you and if you saw it that way, it was not the intention. And lastly, I only responded directly and honestly to your op question.
Whatever else you see is all you but repeating your accusations and reading into what I’m saying will never make those things true. I haven’t been here in a while and when I do, I normally don’t see that much that I feel compelled to talk about. Like many, many others here and elsewhere, I’ve struggled mightily with depression and in the past have even come pretty close to killing myself on a number of occasions. I’ve been sick to my stomach with unwarranted guilt and hopelessness, with loneliness and regret and trauma and abuse both physical and psychological. I am poisonously serious on the subject but your attitude has disregarded my feelings, my past experiences and my pain and accused me of some kind of jerkish, mysterious ulteriour motive.
I find that really unfortunate for you.
Funny, now even though I want to tell you “good luck”, I can’t help but feel that you are only going to see it as some kind of attack on you as if I’m mocking you or some such nonsense, so I will refrain. I am really sorry you are unable to see my words how they were meant and instead see them as some type of anti-social, trolling behaviour because you are flat out wrong about that, but that decision was and is all up to you.
Regardless, however it might happen, I do hope you find even a single digit percentage of the happiness I feel now.
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Post by Redhunter on Aug 19, 2009 6:34:54 GMT -5
Apparently you don't own a cat. Not sure about the concept of a cat talking (though I have heard one bark... it's a very strange experience), but I'll vouch for the rest as a cat owner myself. Heck, my cat has been known to open doors if they have that handle-type thing instead of a knob. All she has to do is jump up, grab it with both paws, and hang there. And why is it that cats ALWAYS have to jump under your feet at the last second when you're going up and down staircases? Apparently you don't own a cat. I’ve probably owned cats longer than you’ve been alive, so apparently you’re wrong. But that's what happens when one makes assumptions and then runs with it as if it were a fact.Not sure about the concept of a cat talking (though I have heard one bark... it's a very strange experience), but I'll vouch for the rest as a cat owner myself. Whoa... Really? Then I say you're just as asinine as skyfire.
Cats can't make long-term plans or have a sense of comedic timing and if they have a "vocabulary" then so do most animals that make different noises for different situations. And under that flexible definition, five “words” isn’t much. Pretty much makes it retarded I would think.
Our recognition of specific animal sounds does not mean they can “speak” or have a “vocabulary”. They communicate, yes, but cats "speak" as much as a baby "speaks" when it cries or coos. You guys saying you've had a "vocabulary" and "could actually speak" when you were still messing your diapers waiting for your fontanelles to harden?
Non-god... Heck, my cat has been known to open doors if they have that handle-type thing instead of a knob. All she has to do is jump up, grab it with both paws, and hang there. A horse can kick a basketball but that doesn’t mean they have reasoning skills or the ability to understand what they are doing, a.k.a. “a working knowledge”.
A rat can navigate a maze and recall how to get through it again but that doesnt' mean it "understands" a thing.
I’ve seen a cat frantically move a board to get out of a barn when my dog was chasing it; that cat didn’t have a “working knowledge” of barricades ffs, it was using its instinct and limited abilities to get from point "A" to point "anywhere the dog is NOT".
If a cat had "working knowledge" it would be able to open most if not all doorknobs, not just the individual ones it has imitated opening. For instance; a display lock at a hardware store should be no problem for Michigan J. Frog... err, I mean cat.Sky said: My first cat had a five-word vocabulary (yes, he could actually speak), a working knowledge of how to open doors, a sense of comedic timing, and the ability to make long-term plans. Wow. Anthropomorphize much? But let’s give you the “speech” and “working knowledge” thing; you both claim you’ve had cats with a “sense of comedic timing” and “the ability to make long term plans”. And to that I now laugh at both of you. Granted, all you stated here made me laugh till I teared up, but you had a strategizing, lyrical cat "a with a sense of comedic timing"? What was it... the feline version of the secretly vaudevillian frog from the old WB cartoon?
Wow. Congrats. That was seriously one of the most absolute asanine things I've ever heard in my life. Spoken like someone who has no clue what they're talking about. Says the virgin who attempted to tell the world what "women want"? Do tell.
That is a good example of a non-answer though. Don't bother to back up your farfetched claim, but by all means personally attack the person who doesn't automatically believe the fantastical ramblings of a known liar and yes, when I make a claim someone is a liar, I can actually back it up. I've been around cats non-stop ever since 1990. I can tell you stories about cats that would floor you. And every last one of them is true. Not that your time frame lends automatic credence to your bogus claim, but I've got twenty years of cat ownership on you and it doesn't change for a moment that I think you're full of it.
But okay. I guess I'll just ignore your long history and just believe that you, skyfire the apologist has had a speaking, planning, comedic, working cat that the rest of the world isn't aware actually existed. A speech-equipped cat who appreciated the intricacies of a witty rejoinder or a practically based joke and apparantly the ability to possibly pull them off as well.
Hilarious...
Was that cat whisked off to heaven before the rest of the world could experience it and now we just "have" to believe your bizarre stories or were you downing Nyquil and watching Triumph the insult comic dog and got confused?
Since when do you think the skeptical people here are just going to believe claims of the miraculous without proof AND with only your tainted word to back it up?
Hello my baby, hello my honey, hello my rag-time gal...
Asinine3.
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Post by Redhunter on Aug 18, 2009 3:45:28 GMT -5
My first cat had a five-word vocabulary (yes, he could actually speak), a working knowledge of how to open doors, a sense of comedic timing, and the ability to make long-term plans. Granted, all you stated here made me laugh till I teared up, but you had a strategizing, lyrical cat "a with a sense of comedic timing"? What was it... the feline version of the secretly vaudevillian frog from the old WB cartoon?
Wow. Congrats. That was seriously one of the most absolute asanine things I've ever heard in my life.
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Post by Redhunter on Aug 17, 2009 5:31:34 GMT -5
Well, Red, my problem with taking this to the curch is complex. As you probably know me well enough by now, it's no surprise to you that I am far from a conventional or dogmatic Christian. There are many, many aspects of the organized church-political that I find disagreeable and objectionable, from the seeming omnipresent misogeny to the subtle moral fascism. It's not my religious beliefs I have no confidence in, it's the human beings involved in the church that I doubt. Seeking the assistance available to me through my place of business may well have negative effects on my employment. I've seen it happen. Teaching is one of the few professions where you can destroy your career merely by the appearence of wrong-doing or instability. Since I work for a parochial school, the church assistance abailable to me is directly connected to my place of employment, and I simply do not want those two aspects of my life in direct contact. People gossip. People talk. People, especially judgmental, self-righetous people (such as those the church-political has in abundance) take "steps" and "measures" to do what they believe is "right" regardless of reality. It's these people I don't trust, not the faith. And while I understand where you are coming from, Red, and why you posted, you do come close to mocking what I believe in several places. You don't know my position on Jesus, or really any other aspects of Christianity, since I don't tend to openly discuss them here. Don't mistake my lack of confidence in the church-political to be lack of confidence in what I believe. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I said the worthlessness of religion made my depression worse, which it did.
I said I am happier without religion, which I am. ‘How do you cope with depression’ is what you were asking in your OP and I gave you my answer: I gave up religion partially because it only made my depression worse.
I said I found it “interesting” that the one place you should be able to turn for help is actually making things worse for you due partly to a religious element, which quite nicely validates my personal story.
Further validation comes in the form of you asking advice from various groups of pagans and atheists who will NOT threaten your job or personal standing in the community like a certain aspect of a certain religion may do.
But my response to you was seen as borderline mockery? Was yojetak mocking with suggestions about lightboxes, not drinking or taking medication? Was she out of line since she doesn’t know your stance on those things because you don’t discuss those aspects on these forums? Was she “making the mistake” of assuming? If not, why not if I’m accused of it?
If my personal story and a direct response to your OP (from a known anti-religion atheist no less)—who is pointing out how religion could be at least partially making your depression worse and how it seems to be causing a teacher to turn to godless groups your church openly mocks and despises over the ones who in theory should be helping you—sounds mocking to you, then you’ve countersunk my point, spackled it, painted over it with two coats of high-gloss and buffed it to a mirror finish.
On the other hand, if you don’t want peoples’ personal opinions, then don’t ask for them. Otherwise please don’t accuse people of mockery when they aren’t doing it because it just makes you look petty and dismissive and I know you are above that.
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Post by Redhunter on Aug 12, 2009 7:26:01 GMT -5
Since my first reaction was to respond with “Ditch depression by ditching religion”, I found your follow up post interesting. .
Sandman said:
I remember once day I was talking to a buddy about that ‘Footprints’ poem. He mockingly said that the single set of footprints was really indicative of when god walked off and let him to fend for himself when he needed it most, because according to this fellow, he never sees the hand of god when he is in trouble. But that assumes that we are actually ever seeing two sets of footprints and/or indications of the “hand of god” on a regular basis or when one is NOT in trouble to begin with. I don’t.
Since you’re coming to a group of oft-times neurotic, awkward, virginal AND perverted, heathen uber-nerds instead of relying on your church or your god or your “saviour” is very interesting and precisely the reason for my initial response. A giant part of your life is ultimately unwilling or unable to help you and at the very least you are hiding the truth from the very ones you are expected to turn to in times of crisis because you “can’t” talk to them about the very real and true things that are bothering you. To me that’s a bit like a police interceptor without an engine; what’s the bloody point of it? For show?
I too have been depressed (or something, never been diagnosed), for most of my life. I’ve wished for my own death and thought seriously about hurting or killing those who used to hurt me on a regular basis. Through horrible and disturbing art images (I have some much “worse” than what I’ve posted here) and brutally honest poetry I have chronicled my crippling anguish over the years in an effort to ‘chase away the demons’. Those things don’t “fix” how I feel, but I am comforted in finding the truth and the underlying causes at any rate.
But as has been pointed out, I don’t think it ever “goes away”. One can’t ‘unlearn’ what one has gone through, one can only cope with the horrors of ones own life the best one is able to. I got rid of a lot of things that were not doing my mental state any good. I took stock and ‘cleaned house’ of a lot of garbage and preferring to focus my limited time on this earth on the things that are most important to me.
This is what makes me happy.
Currently I am with someone who loves me more than anything else and who is happiest when she is making me happy. Combined with some grade-A smoke and the complete absence of arbitrary, un-scientific religious rules involving my penis and what I do with it has made me much happier than I’ve ever been in my life, and rest assured that comment contains not a jot nor a whittle of hyperbole; I’m genuinely the happiest I’ve ever been in my life. Ever. Serious as a heart-attack, Jack.
Interestingly I was easily the most miserable I’ve ever been when I saw the utter lack of support, understanding and comfort my “faith” offered me. The absolute worst I’ve ever felt about myself was when I did little but put my hope in an invisible “god” who never showed. Nothing drives home depression like fruitlessly pleading with the one being who is supposed to know and care but who is an utter no-show. Anyway, that’s my take on your question based solely on my own personal experiences.
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Post by Redhunter on Apr 21, 2009 6:57:00 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KolobStarCluster, do you have the right ascension and declination for Kolob? Maybe you can't find it unless you're wearing your magic underwear! No doubt. And who can argue with the "logic" of a god speaking to a human on earth and having him write down information for OTHER humans on earth and referring to Kolob time instead of earth time because the earth and kolob USED to be near each other...
For fuck's sake...
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Post by Redhunter on Apr 21, 2009 6:52:45 GMT -5
So I saw the first episode of Bleach. It was pretty entertaining, but it's not really my thing. I did get an epically long blog post out of it, though. I haven't decided if that's a good thing or a bad thing yet. I don't get it either. I tried watching that shit, I've always loved cartoons and I still do; only there just isn't that much anime that I find remotely interesting.
Despite having a lot of themes I really like, I couldn't get into it.
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Post by Redhunter on Apr 21, 2009 4:23:04 GMT -5
WTF is your problem?
This wasn't an attack on you and it has nothing to do with the op or the exchange I had with skyfire.
He bitched the animation on JQ sucked, he watches transformers and shit which is worse and came about much later.
But you want better than transformers or gi joe?
Bugs Bunny, Disney, Popeye, Tom and Jerry, Fritz the fucking cat looked better IMO.
So relax your ass. I don't have a problem, and I'm already relaxed. I was just asking because I was curious. You said you thought it definately was herky-jerky, I was just trying to get an understanding for comparison, that's all. I'm certainly not trying to undermine your opinion. I do apologize if I came off sounding demanding, however. Rereading what I said, I think that may be where the problem was. For that I'm sorry. It's okay... I didn't have to respond like that back to you. I find I'm being second-guessed and outright blamed for just about everything around here lately so I'm a bit punchy. I over-reacted and for that, I'M sorry. But yeah, it sounded a wee bit antagonistic without inflection, I shoulda made certain that you WERE being combative before pulling a lady renae on you like that.
No harm, no foul.
Peace?
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Post by Redhunter on Apr 21, 2009 4:15:32 GMT -5
This thread has turned into a nice little therapy session for some of us!
Any of you girls feel vulnerable and/or alone right now, come see me! Are you paying for the plane ticket? Damn, I haven't filled out my passport yet, I have to drive. Hey, you've got the shotgun, I've got the dog. Sounds like a match made in hell! Hey! We can go hunting for JW's!
When we get our limit I can show you how to clean them!
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Post by Redhunter on Apr 21, 2009 4:03:25 GMT -5
///I've been gone for Spring Break, so I haven't been online in a few days, and it looks like I missed a lot. I'm not going to bother reading this whole thread, my head cant' take it, but I do want to clarify a couple of things. I find the venom in this thread surprising and sad. I'm a good person and a good father. Most people who know me would agree. I find it sickening that people would judge my fitness as a parent and a man based on 4 paragraphs tossed off in the space of 5 minutes. I'd like to throw out a quick "FUCK YOU" to those who did that. You know who you are. I never tried to say that I'm better than anyone for having kids or to "demonize" people without kids. Those who replied to my post read a lot into it that I never stated - assumptions about my point of view that couldn't be more wrong. Maybe my use of the ambiguous "you" or "one" was inappropriate and, in retrospect, unfortunate, but for the most part, I was relating my own process of growth before and after having a child. I use the word "grow" not to imply that those who feel like the referenced "old me" should or need to grow, but because that's what I did. I grew; I changed; I matured. I use those words in reference to my own experience because they are appropriate for describing my life and evolution as a person. I'm not insinuating that that's what anyone who disagrees with me should do. That's what several people who read my post assumed. No doubt, I hear a lot of voices that echo the younger me. I pointed that out, but I didn't seek to imply that because you said the things I used to say, that you are just like me. I did grow out of that stuff. Should everyone? Who the fuck knows - not me certainly, but I know I'm a better person now than I was then. This is not ONLY from being father - in fact, it could be argued that I was doing these things anyway, but becoming a father definitely forced the issue for me. Being a father made me reflect upon my insufficiencies, my selfishness, my laziness, my emotional immaturity, and work harder than ever to fix them. For the most part, I've improved. Becoming a father forced me to be a better person. Not better than other people, just better than my old self. I never said people are incomplete without a child, or that people with kids are better than those without, again, I was speaking for myself. I didn't feel incomplete without one. But now that I have one - my life is richer than it was before. I never said that people who don't like kids are stupid. I do think it's an irrational opinion because kids are like adults - they can/should be taken upon individual merit. That's an opinion of mine that won't change. On that note, I love my niece, but my nephew is a shit-head, and I personally can't stand the little turd. My like or dislike of each has nothing to do with their age, but of what kind of people they are [becoming]. I never said that having children is the only way to give more of yourself. It's one way that I chose. I have others - music, gardening, my professional career. I'm productive in all those things, but for me, having a child helped me to focus all those things to one end. At the very least, it focused my motivation and enhanced my perspective. I'm very confused about the reaction that people had to my talk of teaching and influencing my daughter - as if I'm going to lock her in a closet and indoctrinate her. Again - a very brash assumption about what I meant. I can't explain it any better than to say that I look forward to sharing with my daughter the things that I love myself - music, art, good books, sports, gardening, a general love of life. I may still be a little idealistic about it because my daughter is only 6 months old, but I'm not stupid. Of course, she will grow up and disagree with me on some or all of it, and I will still love her. In fact, I would probably respect her more for it. In retrospect - I still stand by everything I said, but can see how my wording of things made my motivations a bit ambiguous. I'm a writing teacher and should have known better, but I won't apologize for not taking a half hour to edit and revise my post. What can I say? I logged on, read a thread title, and hammered out a quick response. I was on vacation and this is the internet. I didn't reckon on people taking it so seriously. I think I understood you pretty well, but yes, without the fact that you were speaking ONLY of yourself, you did seem to imply that you were speaking for others or humans as a whole.
Unfortunately, your post, a long with other minutia, became the centre-point more often then not and the simple OP was lost in pedantic and accusations. And since I'm a well known fucking asshole, belligerent shithead, the fault lies with everyone else.
The harsher responses that you received though, are defensive in nature from having this type of thing thrown at us a lot. You'll probably never understand the depths of this, and I'm not speaking for others nor am I apologizing for what has been said, but I just want you to think of any touchy subject where people over-react and apply that to this subject. It's a hot-button and we are used to people, especially parents because they often get borderline-fundy about it, acting as if we are too lazy, stupid or immature to know what we really want. I know now that you were not doing that or not trying to do that, but it is extremely common.
My uncle was in Vietnam... loud noises make him jump. It's the same kind of thing. My uncle doesn't think a person is trying to shoot him if they pop a champagne cork, but that doesn't stop the thought from leaping to the front of his brain. I hope that makes sense.
DV and Blue: this has been dissected to the nth degree and sidetracked into things that were never supposed to have been brought up. I maintain that I didn't see any or very little support or understanding for ANY reason given why folks don't like kids. Again and again the loaded term "hate" was used by you guys in referring to us individually or as a group. It seemed clear to me by the tone of your posts that you found the anti-side to be rather baseless in their "hatred" and DV even said it was so baseless that she concluded that the "irrational" dismissal of children (apparently impervious to the notion that kids are inherently different by their very definition) was tantamount to racism based on stereotypes. In the past days I had asked for examples of support that was supposedly given for other reasons as I only recall hearing dismissive and loaded ones like DV's comparing a CF persons dislike of children to the same as hating an adult who needs to wear a diaper. That was clearly loaded and not at representative of someone who is acknowledging or conceding any points, so far as I could tell.
And the racism comment has still not been explained to me, from what I understand that comparison hinges on the perceived idea that all children are all extremely personable and charismatic characters who are equal with all adults in every way. CF people often have irrational and illogical hatred for them based on false stereotypes and therefore their choices are based on lies, meaning they are making up reasons to dislike children when there are none. The qualifications involved not having "legitimate" reasons, those reasons not being addressed, some of them being dismissed, and then claiming that it was never implied that "on par with" and "the same as" meant the same thing. The whole thing was repeated and my defense to this stupid comparison was simply dismissed and I was called an "idiot" for not seeing it.
For the last time; disliking children is in not fucking way the same as 'hating black people for "being too loud"' and that IS insulting.
It only seemed to get more dismissive and condescending from there until it bordered on insulting and slander. I suppose it was my fault at that point for continuing, but I should've cut and run if I had known where it was all headed.
I would be happy to continue this thread but not in it's present form.
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