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Post by Kisare on Dec 22, 2011 20:38:07 GMT -5
It is not, in my opinion, acceptable for any boy to wear dresses in public (not counting gender identity issues of course). I would look down on any parents who allowed this, or allowed their children to go out in public wearing any sort of ridiculous or unacceptable outfit. I'm just saying it's not my place to try to regulate their parenting. They're certainly not being abusive by letting their children dress in such a way. If that's what works for them, so be it. Just don't call me an intolerant parent because I have higher standards for my children in terms of public appearance. You didn't answer my question. Why do you find it unacceptable for your son to wear a dress? I don't give a shit about your opinion on other kids doing so. I want to hear why your son is not allowed to do so. ETA: Because he believes it would make him look bad to other adults if he let his son out in public in a dress. It has nothing to do with societal standards or making sure his kid looks presentable. It's entirely about how other people view him. I figured. I just want to see him say that so he can't backtrack with "I never said that" later.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 22, 2011 20:51:48 GMT -5
That is what cestle said.
Nothing further, your honor. This man is concerned for one thing, his public image and that it is bad for little boys to wear dresses even if they aren't trans.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 20:55:48 GMT -5
Because it is not socially acceptable for boys to wear dresses, just like it is not socially acceptable for women to not shave their legs. It is simply the custom in our society and I will raise my children by teaching them that they should feel free to express themselves, but they also need to find an appropriate balance with fitting in. Expressing yourself should not come at the expense of making yourself a social outcast. There are lots of things regarding fashion and personal hygiene that are particular to one gender or the other for whatever reason, and adults are free to choose not to follow those customs, and not have their own children follow them, but they will have to deal with the judgement of those around them.
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Post by lexikon on Dec 22, 2011 20:57:44 GMT -5
So you support killing gay people in Saudi Arabia? It's socially acceptable there.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 21:03:06 GMT -5
People's statuses are, in my view, off-limits. Being gay is not a behavior like choosing to wear a dress. Also, the punishment needs to fit the crime. A parent letting their son (with no gender identity issues) wear a dress in public is worthy of a shake of my head, not a public stoning.
I am fortunate not to live in Saudi Arabia because I disagree with nearly everything about their society. Unfortunately, I don't have the authority to tell them to change their society.
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Post by gadfly on Dec 22, 2011 21:08:44 GMT -5
Because it is not socially acceptable for boys to wear dresses, just like it is not socially acceptable for women to not shave their legs. It is simply the custom in our society and I will raise my children by teaching them that they should feel free to express themselves, but they also need to find an appropriate balance with fitting in. Expressing yourself should not come at the expense of making yourself a social outcast. There are lots of things regarding fashion and personal hygiene that are particular to one gender or the other for whatever reason, and adults are free to choose not to follow those customs, and not have their own children follow them, but they will have to deal with the judgement of those around them. I'm a woman. I also don't normally shave any of my body hair (except for when I shaved my calves a while back simply because I was curious about what it felt like since it had probably been more than a decade or so since my last shave there - it was interesting but I doubt I'll do it again anytime soon, especially since my hair seems to have grown back slowly, and somewhat less than before ). Should I be pressured by society to adhere rigidly to a convention that normally I do not feel like following? Feel free to explain to me why.
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Post by lexikon on Dec 22, 2011 21:09:14 GMT -5
In America we have free speech and power of influence.
And what's a skake of a head worth? You really have no reason to monitor your children's clothing if that's all your excuse is.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 21:14:27 GMT -5
It's worth the fact that other people are looking down on me. I care about what other people think of me and my children, and I will raise them to do the same with balance. Obviously you should not be preoccupied with what people think of you to an extreme extent, but neither is a complete disregard for people's perception of you good either.
If you don't feel like following this convention, then by all means don't do it. The pressure does exist and it's not going to go away any time soon, so if you can let it roll off your back then wonderful for you. Most people including myself would find it gross for a woman to not shave her legs. Why? I have no idea. That's just the way it is. It's just the custom in our society. There are certain things expected of men in terms of fashion and hygiene as well, and there are lots of customs expected of everyone in these areas. Follow them. Don't follow them. It's your choice. I'm just saying that teaching my children to find a balance between expressing themselves but also fitting in with society is not a bad thing.
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Post by lexikon on Dec 22, 2011 21:16:27 GMT -5
Teaching is not the same as forcing.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 21:17:58 GMT -5
Sorry, when you are a small child you have no freedom. You get more freedom as you grow up, along with more responsibility. My children will wear what I tell them to wear and that will be that. How you are raised can certainly influence you throughout your life.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 22, 2011 21:18:10 GMT -5
The pressure does exist and it's not going to go away any time soon And letting society pressure you will only make sure that pressure continues to happen. Societal norms aren't changed by diligently following them. They're changed by breaking them.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 22, 2011 21:19:53 GMT -5
It's worth the fact that other people are looking down on me. Once again it comes down to you don't give a shit about whether your kid is teased or not. You only care about your self. which is selfish. made a word booboo
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 21:20:05 GMT -5
Well I'm not interested in breaking them and I enjoy following them. So you're looking at the wrong guy.
For the millionth time, yes I do care about how other people would perceive my parenting abilities. But I do also care about how other people will perceive my child's appearance. I would also care about my child being teased as well, but my main motivation for not allowing my son to wear a dress wouldn't be to protect him from being teased, but because I find it to be inappropriate behavior. Having my child be teased would add insult to injury and only further motivate me in not wanting him to wear a dress.
If children teased my son about doing x, and let's say x is a behavior I approve of and I find responsible, I am not going to tell my child to stop doing x merely to stop other people from teasing him.
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Post by gadfly on Dec 22, 2011 21:25:05 GMT -5
Sorry, when you are a small child you have no freedom. You get more freedom as you grow up, along with more responsibility. My children will wear what I tell them to wear and that will be that. How you are raised can certainly influence you throughout your life. Not saying that you are justifying this, but people can and do use this line of reasoning to justify doing some pretty atrocious things to their kids. Also, maybe it would be useful to think about why a lot of Western society considers leg, armpit, and pubic hair on adult women - a perfectly natural and normal thing to have - to be "gross"? Maybe it's kind of like how some people in America think that the male foreskin is automatically "gross", or that long labia on women are automatically "gross", or that fat women are automatically "gross" - e.i., it's a line of thinking that is nothing but gendered bullshit. I'm not saying you have to change your personal preferences in this area but some serious thought devoted to why you think this way would be nice.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 21:38:05 GMT -5
If we're going to go the natural route, isn't body odor completely natural to have? We use anti-perspirants, which is technically an OTC drug, to artificially stop our underarms from sweating (or else artificial deodorants to mask the odor). Is it natural for men to ever shave their face? Or for anyone to cut their hair? Most grooming techniques are not "natural."
A penis or vagina is a perfectly normal, natural thing to have yet for whatever reason we require ourselves to cover them in public. Breasts don't even have a sexual function yet females are required to cover theirs.
As for the foreskin, labia, etc. that has nothing to do with your public appearance as people in public should not be seeing those things. I never said fat people are automatically gross — many people simply are naturally heavier-set (in which case they usually look worse when they try to be thin), or have medical issues. Many times it is due to irresponsible behavior which should be discouraged.
I think this way because society collectively thinks this way. There are just things we do to keep in mind how other people perceive ourselves. It's a sort of organically developed, unspoken communal pact that I don't think anybody can definitively explain. It's things we do to please others. All I'm saying is that, while a happy medium is not always the right answer, in this respect it is. Be yourself certainly, but don't be a social outcast. Children's movies, TV shows, etc. are always telling kids to "Be yourself!" What I'm saying is that this lesson, taken purely without any moderation, isn't good either.
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